Active [CAP] Anti-Hazard Tank [QC Approved 2/2]

[phenix]

Name: Anti-Hazard Tank

Description of Concept: A relatively bulky Poke who handles swapping in on hazards fairly well and could pressure hazard setters if needed

Reasons for Concept: With the abundance of stealth rock as well as some hazard stacking teams, it'd be nice to have something to rely on outside of your normal rock-weak defoggers and shoving spinning on an otherwise offensive Poke that may prefer some other move (see Blastoise, Donphan, etc.) It can still provide for the team in or out of hazard removal.
As someone who doesn't always have a nice slot for the current hazard removers, it'd be nice to have a solid Poke to fall back on that breaks the norms.

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This Pokemon would be pretty versatile and lets you have a bit more freedom on your team when keeping in mind the dangers of stealth rock as well as (to a lesser degree) things like sticky web or toxic spikes, both of which can kill the momentum of a team to the point of no redemption.

 

[Niqyue]

Bulk is always better. <3 I really want something like this tbh just because it can be used on more than just Hyper Offensive team to protect your Talonflame.

 

[Martin]

I'm not in the same boat as Niqyue on this one actually. I think that there are things which fill the roles you stated very well, and the two examples that you gave genuinely have no reason to not run Rapid Spin because a: Blastoise is outclassed by virtually every special Water-type in the tier without Rapid Spin and b: Donphan has literally no purpose for usage over Hippowdon without Rapid Spin (not that its worth using over it in the first place due to the large number of viable hazard removers that are superior anyway). The main example of a hazard removing tank which doesn't mind having to run a hazard removal move is definitely (Mega) Scizor, as it can function very well with a set of just Defog, Roost, Bullet Punch and Knock Off - although there is also Excadrill (although this does mean that it gives up on SD, most Excadrill are used for Rapid Spin anyway - with SD+Sand Rush being big if you have another remover on a sand team - and this is just under the assumption you are using offensive Excadrill instead of SpD). I'm slight leaning towards rejecting this at the moment, but I will leave it open to discussion as I can be swayed easily on this one.

edit: da fuq? why did blastoise and water-type link .-.

 

[Blaguard]

I'm not in the same boat as Niqyue on this one actually. I think that there are things which fill the roles you stated very well, and the two examples that you gave genuinely have no reason to not run Rapid Spin because a: Blastoise is outclassed by virtually every special Water-type in the tier without Rapid Spin and b: Donphan has literally no purpose for usage over Hippowdon without Rapid Spin (not that its worth using over it in the first place due to the large number of viable hazard removers that are superior anyway). The main example of a hazard removing tank which doesn't mind having to run a hazard removal move is definitely (Mega) Scizor, as it can function very well with a set of just Defog, Roost, Bullet Punch and Knock Off - although there is also Excadrill (although this does mean that it gives up on SD, most Excadrill are used for Rapid Spin anyway - with SD+Sand Rush being big if you have another remover on a sand team - and this is just under the assumption you are using offensive Excadrill instead of SpD). I'm slight leaning towards rejecting this at the moment, but I will leave it open to discussion as I can be swayed easily on this one.

edit: da fuq? why did blastoise and water-type link .-.

But the only examples you gave for pokes that fix this role are Scizor, which is neutral to rocks and takes up your mega slot if you want better bulk, and Excadrill, which is often wasted as a tank due to its great offensive potential, common weaknesses, and mediocre 110/60/65 bulk. This concept could offer an option with better typing that doesn't come with the opportunity cost of a mega slot.

 

[Martin]

But the only examples you gave for pokes that fix this role are Scizor, which is neutral to rocks and takes up your mega slot if you want better bulk, and Excadrill, which is often wasted as a tank due to its great offensive potential, common weaknesses, and mediocre 110/60/65 bulk. This concept could offer an option with better typing that doesn't come with the opportunity cost of a mega slot.

Firstly, I am going to say something that I have said many-a-time. The thing that makes Scizor so good is that you can very easily give it Lefties/Iron Plate/LO if you need to use another mega in its place while maintaining the Mega Scizor's role, so that point is completely null - especially when finding a bulky hazard remover that is not weak to rocks is like trying to find one of ten needles in a 1m^3 hay stack, making a neutrality a godsend for Scizor, while also being able to retain momentum with U-turn>Knock Off makes it an amazing hazard remover. Secondly, if you think that SpD Excadrill is suboptimal you have clearly never a: used one or b: seen one, because it is the most anti-meta piece of shit you could possibly find in A rank, and it is so useful to so many teams (it is a lot like Jumpluff in PU tbh: it looks bad on paper due to its stats, but it is actually amazing when put into practice). Also, if you want me to tell you another one, I direct you towards (Mega) Latias. Not only are latias and its mega bulky, but they also has very good offensive presence AND can support its team with Healing Wish in addition to Defog if need be, while Mega Latias has a quote-on-quote "resistance" to Knock Off that allows it to switch in on a large portion of the metagame - acting as the best way of dealing with Landorus-I (aka the broken thing). There is also two VERY good Pokemon which flat-out prevent the setting of hazards in Mega Sableye and Mega Diancie (i.e. two of the megas with the least opportunity cost to their use in the game), and good removers in defensive Starmie and Zapdos. Really, you are spoiled for choice in regarding tanky defoggers/spinners in this meta, and this kind of concept won't actually add any particular niche that isn't already filled well by other Pokémon.

 

[Matt_192]

Firstly, I am going to say something that I have said many-a-time. The thing that makes Scizor so good is that you can very easily give it Lefties/Iron Plate/LO if you need to use another mega in its place while maintaining the Mega Scizor's role, so that point is completely null - especially when finding a bulky hazard remover that is not weak to rocks is like trying to find one of ten needles in a 1m^3 hay stack, making a neutrality a godsend for Scizor, while also being able to retain momentum with U-turn>Knock Off makes it an amazing hazard remover. Secondly, if you think that SpD Excadrill is suboptimal you have clearly never a: used one or b: seen one, because it is the most anti-meta piece of shit you could possibly find in A rank, and it is so useful to so many teams (it is a lot like Jumpluff in PU tbh: it looks bad on paper due to its stats, but it is actually amazing when put into practice). Also, if you want me to tell you another one, I direct you towards (Mega) Latias. Not only are latias and its mega bulky, but they also has very good offensive presence AND can support its team with Healing Wish in addition to Defog if need be, while Mega Latias has a quote-on-quote "resistance" to Knock Off that allows it to switch in on a large portion of the metagame - acting as the best way of dealing with Landorus-I (aka the broken thing). There is also two VERY good Pokemon which flat-out prevent the setting of hazards in Mega Sableye and Mega Diancie (i.e. two of the megas with the least opportunity cost to their use in the game), and good removers in defensive Starmie and Zapdos. Really, you are spoiled for choice in regarding tanky defoggers/spinners in this meta, and this kind of concept won't actually add any particular niche that isn't already filled well by other Pokémon.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree entirely. Mega Diancie and Mega Sableye only work as counters under the assumptions that a) they've already mega evolved and b) you're out at the same time. Turn 1 can be an issue, as your opponent can force you to lead with one of these two and pick up momentum early on by going into a counter/check.

Whilst SpDef Excadrill is decently bulky, I think @phenix is looking for a more versatile check to hazards, probably with Levitate to mitigate Spikes, Toxic Spikes and Sticky Web. Sure, Balloon Drill is a thing but it only has to be hit once and you lose your check.

Mega Latias is the main Pokemon that would give this concept a hard time getting around, however, it does force you to use up your mega slot. Also, whilst it has amazing 120/150 defences, it's HP is a little lacking. I'm thinking that this concept will revolve around a slower, more physically bulky variant of Mega Latias with Levitate to ignore ground hazards.

Unless you have a good returning argument, I see no issues with 1/2 approving this (I'll hold off for now though).

 

[Martin]

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree entirely. Mega Diancie and Mega Sableye only work as counters under the assumptions that a) they've already mega evolved and b) you're out at the same time. Turn 1 can be an issue, as your opponent can force you to lead with one of these two and pick up momentum early on by going into a counter/check.

Whilst SpDef Excadrill is decently bulky, I think @phenix is looking for a more versatile check to hazards, probably with Levitate to mitigate Spikes, Toxic Spikes and Sticky Web. Sure, Balloon Drill is a thing but it only has to be hit once and you lose your check.

Mega Latias is the main Pokemon that would give this concept a hard time getting around, however, it does force you to use up your mega slot. Also, whilst it has amazing 120/150 defences, it's HP is a little lacking. I'm thinking that this concept will revolve around a slower, more physically bulky variant of Mega Latias with Levitate to ignore ground hazards.

Unless you have a good returning argument, I see no issues with 1/2 approving this (I'll hold off for now though).

I agree with you on implementation, but I feel like there will need to be a little more discussion regarding it before any approvals happen, as "a physically-oriented Mega Latias" isn't really leaving the project very open to variation, and I feel that if we have a somewhat blank slate we will be able to carve it into the meta a little better. I am now leaning towards approval, but I want to see more discussion before anything happens with this.

 

[Matt_192]

I agree with you on implementation, but I feel like there will need to be a little more discussion regarding it before any approvals happen, as "a physically-oriented Mega Latias" isn't really leaving the project very open to variation, and I feel that if we have a somewhat blank slate we will be able to carve it into the meta a little better. I am now leaning towards approval, but I want to see more discussion before anything happens with this.

Agreed. @phenix what other ideas did you have regarding the Pokemon itself?

 

[phenix]

I honestly don't like that you guys are assuming what I want to do with implementing the Pokemon itself and then providing current Pokemon that do that job.
First and foremost, typing is a big factor in this as well as not using a mega slot.
It's really unfair to say I'm already spoiled with choices. TBH, pretty much every idea in CAP will have something that can do a similar role. I was under the impression this was just to add to the pool of options and do the job a bit differently than the standard Pokes for it.
By all means, throw out the "blank slate" but you're going to end up with (a) a slow wall remover or (b) a fast offensive remover. Forretress or scarf Excadrill anyone? As long as you say that there's already tanky removers the same applies to nearly anything any Pokemon can do.
I stand by my idea and already have plenty of ideas regarding it and its personal role.

Granted, I was thinking on having Levitate along with options like Arena Trap or Intimidate as other ability options. My plan so far is a Fighting/Ground manticore (they can have wings which could justify the ability as well as defog). It could either clear the hazards or perhaps trap to stop the setter outright for offensive teams? It's a non-mega option with a unique typing that may fit better on a team than the current options. It will still have the ice weakness, but an immunity to electric and plenty of resists (including the 4x to rocks) would allow it an edge over current Pokes that are either neutral or weak in terms of removal.

 

[Matt_192]

I honestly don't like that you guys are assuming what I want to do with implementing the Pokemon itself and then providing current Pokemon that do that job.
First and foremost, typing is a big factor in this as well as not using a mega slot.
It's really unfair to say I'm already spoiled with choices. TBH, pretty much every idea in CAP will have something that can do a similar role. I was under the impression this was just to add to the pool of options and do the job a bit differently than the standard Pokes for it.
By all means, throw out the "blank slate" but you're going to end up with (a) a slow wall remover or (b) a fast offensive remover. Forretress or scarf Excadrill anyone? As long as you say that there's already tanky removers the same applies to nearly anything any Pokemon can do.
I stand by my idea and already have plenty of ideas regarding it and its personal role.

Granted, I was thinking on having Levitate along with options like Arena Trap or Intimidate as other ability options. My plan so far is a Fighting/Ground manticore (they can have wings which could justify the ability as well as defog). It could either clear the hazards or perhaps trap to stop the setter outright for offensive teams? It's a non-mega option with a unique typing that may fit better on a team than the current options. It will still have the ice weakness, but an immunity to electric and plenty of resists (including the 4x to rocks) would allow it an edge over current Pokes that are either neutral or weak in terms of removal.

I was only countering the Pokemon Marigi brought up

Either way, this concept has a lot of potential - QC Approved 1/2

 

[phenix]

I was only countering the Pokemon Marigi brought up

Either way, this concept has a lot of potential - QC Approved 1/2

Yeah, I was mostly talking about his assumption on Lati

 

[Martin]

QC Approved 2/2

 

[Matt_192]

Now that this concept has got QC Approved 2/2, it will now be eligible to be voted on on 5/31/15. In the meantime, I recommend you look around the rest of the CAP forum and approve/decline concepts as you see fit @phenix .

I'll also leave this thread open until the 31st.

 

[Martin]

Now that this concept has got QC Approved 2/2, it will now be eligible to be voted on on 5/31/15. In the meantime, I recommend you look around the rest of the CAP forum and approve/decline concepts as you see fit @phenix .

I'll also leave this thread open until the 31st.

U saying that this thread being closed is my birthday present from u? kden.