Closed Greninja Tiering Discussion

[Matt_192]

Seeing as the council is seemingly split 4:4 (with one person left to say something, but eh, may as well start this thread now), I thought it may be best to get some community discussion going on this issue!

For about a year now, Greninja has been raised in the Tiering Council and, despite being able to change the opinions of a few people rather recently, the discussion has been rather stale lately. The same points are going back and forth to the pro-ban and anti-ban people so we would like the community's opinion on what they think!

To not make this a shitposting place, we would like you to use the following format in your posts:

Stance: Ban/Not Ban
Description: (Make it lengthy at least please, we're looking for something to kick discussions off with, not just a one-liner)

After this, we'll probably get the ball rolling and kick off discussion as normal, but this all seems simple enough :]

PS: I have a 10 page 'essay' to whip out when necessary topkek

 

[SoIidSmok3]

Seeing as the council is seemingly split 4:4 (with one person left to say something, but eh, may as well start this thread now), I thought it may be best to get some community discussion going on this issue!

For about a year now, Greninja has been raised in the Tiering Council and, despite being able to change the opinions of a few people rather recently, the discussion has been rather stale lately. The same points are going back and forth to the pro-ban and anti-ban people so we would like the community's opinion on what they think!

To not make this a shitposting place, we would like you to use the following format in your posts:

Stance: Ban/Not Ban
Description: (Make it lengthy at least please, we're looking for something to kick discussions off with, not just a one-liner)

After this, we'll probably get the ball rolling and kick off discussion as normal, but this all seems simple enough :]

PS: I have a 10 page 'essay' to whip out when necessary topkek

My stance is "No ban", but honestly im right on the line between the 2 mainly because of how others feel about ninja. Personally, greninja sounds amazing on paper, but on the field it fails to hold up that arguement. Im not gona waste time on counters, checks or whatever since its an age old battle that never convinces anybody anyways. My opinion rest solely on battle experience, but that doesnt mean i dont understand why others feel "pro ban". After all this time ive decided to rest in the gray area and listen to what others have to say. Just like before im sure both sides will have an appropriate argument for the most part.

 

[notsoclutch]

As one of the 4 council members whos against the ban, I will say that Greninja is boarderline overpowered, but without going into too much detail (since Ive already influenced this enough in the past year), I will say that a big part of my anti ban argument deals with 4 moveslot syndrome and inability to pressure stall too much or outspeed enough of an offensive team to be a true issue for the game.

 

[Matt_192]

My stance is "No ban", but honestly im right on the line between the 2 mainly because of how others feel about ninja. Personally, greninja sounds amazing on paper, but on the field it fails to hold up that arguement. Im not gona waste time on counters, checks or whatever since its an age old battle that never convinces anybody anyways. My opinion rest solely on battle experience, but that doesnt mean i dont understand why others feel "pro ban". After all this time ive decided to rest in the gray area and listen to what others have to say. Just like before im sure both sides will have an appropriate argument for the most part.

Fair enough. I think we need to see a greater tournament usage from him before we go around making final decisions like you said

As one of the 4 council members whos against the ban, I will say that Greninja is boarderline overpowered, but without going into too much detail (since Ive already influenced this enough in the past year), I will say that a big part of my anti ban argument deals with 4 moveslot syndrome and inability to pressure stall too much or outspeed enough of an offensive team to be a true issue for the game.

Also fair enough, but I think I replied to a lot of this back in council chat so I won't go on repeating myself here

We should probably advertise this to players outside of the council mainly, before it gets swallowed up in SB messages and other thread creations :]

 

[Loli-Shark]

I'd say ban based on battles and personal preference, but I don't want to throw up too much stuff like calcs or whatever because it's been going for so long, so they've all - probably - been used by this point.

So simply put, it's so versatile that because of protean and the huge move pool it has. With access to 12 types to choose from - ignoring hidden power. Yes, like @notsoclutch mentions, it suffers from 4 move syndrome but I somewhat agree with his point on outspeeding. It is a fast mon, 27th in that regard, yet it suffers against scarf sets, like a scarf Rotom-W. But to be honest, I feel that you'd only run a scarf Rotom-W for trick, or to make sure you can deal with a Greninja. Many mega Pokemon deal with it too, such as mega Manectric, mega Lopunny and mega Aerodactyl, but you wouldn't keep a Greninja in on these mons anyways. Noivern can outspeed, Talonflame can outspeed, even with priority, and so can Swellow, all of which can land OHKOs on the Greninja. In most teams, you're lucky to find two of those, which gives Greninja too much stomping room.

And yes, I guarantee that there are counters for Greninja. Gyarados hard counters any variant, and as before mentioned, all the fast attackers. But that's it.

So yes, I can see the argument on both sides. But regardless, I think that protean gives Greninja waaaaaaaay to much potential, regardless of how frail it is.

 

[Matt_192]

I'd say ban based on battles and personal preference, but I don't want to throw up too much stuff like calcs or whatever because it's been going for so long, so they've all - probably - been used by this point.

So simply put, it's so versatile that because of protean and the huge move pool it has. With access to 12 types to choose from - ignoring hidden power. Yes, like @notsoclutch mentions, it suffers from 4 move syndrome but I somewhat agree with his point on outspeeding. It is a fast mon, 27th in that regard, yet it suffers against scarf sets, like a scarf Rotom-W. But to be honest, I feel that you'd only run a scarf Rotom-W for trick, or to make sure you can deal with a Greninja. Many mega Pokemon deal with it too, such as mega Manectric, mega Lopunny and mega Aerodactyl, but you wouldn't keep a Greninja in on these mons anyways. Noivern can outspeed, Talonflame can outspeed, even with priority, and so can Swellow, all of which can land OHKOs on the Greninja. In most teams, you're lucky to find two of those, which gives Greninja too much stomping room.

And yes, I guarantee that there are counters for Greninja. Gyarados hard counters any variant, and as before mentioned, all the fast attackers. But that's it.

So yes, I can see the argument on both sides. But regardless, I think that protean gives Greninja waaaaaaaay to much potential, regardless of how frail it is.

• Swellow and Noivern are basically pointless to bring up - they aren't that viable
• 252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 164-192 (46.4 - 54.3%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery - it can technically catch the switch of BulkyDD
  
• You don't leave Greninja in on Talonflame
• Scarf Rotom-W is barely seen anymore
• All of your megas can't switch in - neither can Talon

 

[Loli-Shark]

• Swellow and Noivern are basically pointless to bring up - they aren't that viable
• 252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 164-192 (46.4 - 54.3%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery - it can technically catch the switch of BulkyDD
  
• You don't leave Greninja in on Talonflame
• Scarf Rotom-W is barely seen anymore
• All of your megas can't switch in - neither can Talon

Hence my main point... kinda Noivern and Swellow are irrelevant, which leaves only a Gyarados/Gyarados with AV that can actually do anything, because you would never leave it out anyways.

So really, to be able to catch out and/or deal with a Greninja without too much difficulty is really niché circumstances

 

[Feblih]

My opinion may not have a big vallue, but i say it deserves a BAN.

It has one of the widest movepool in the game. It can be used as astall breaker since it has Taunt. Can be used as a lead with TOxic spike. Or you can use it as a power house life orber. It is extremly hard to predict what opponent Greninja will do. Ok he is not the only in the case.
Landorus-T for exemple can be a buky stealth rocker or a Choice Scarf, but when you face Lando-T you know how you can check it. You never know what in your team can check opponent Greninja.

It has the 122 Base stats speed, that make it extremly hard to revenge kill.

So the speed + the huge move pool + the almost impossibility to predict it + the variety of role. This guy deserve a room in Uber.

This guy has quite same damage than Specs Hoopa-U, but is less predictable then Hoopa-U and is way faster.
Something is wrong with Greninja. Very wrong.


Ok its problem he has low defense, low HP, but this problem is only a problem for Double not for Single. In Single you can be frail, but if you have a move pool that fit your team, then it is almost impossible to predict and use the weakness of Greninja for the opponent.

 

[notsoclutch]

My opinion may not have a big vallue, but i say it deserves a BAN.

It has one of the widest movepool in the game. It can be used as astall breaker since it has Taunt. Can be used as a lead with TOxic spike. Or you can use it as a power house life orber. It is extremly hard to predict what opponent Greninja will do. Ok he is not the only in the case.
Landorus-T for exemple can be a buky stealth rocker or a Choice Scarf, but when you face Lando-T you know how you can check it. You never know what in your team can check opponent Greninja.

It has the 122 Base stats speed, that make it extremly hard to revenge kill.

So the speed + the huge move pool + the almost impossibility to predict it + the variety of role. This guy deserve a room in Uber.

This guy has quite same damage than Specs Hoopa-U, but is less predictable then Hoopa-U and is way faster.
Something is wrong with Greninja. Very wrong.


Ok its problem he has low defense, low HP, but this problem is only a problem for Double not for Single. In Single you can be frail, but if you have a move pool that fit your team, then it is almost impossible to predict and use the weakness of Greninja for the opponent.

We value your opinion very much. Otherwise, we wouldnt be reaching out to you and the rest of the community for insight.

If anyone ever feels as if we of the tiering council are being a bit elitist, it is fine to say something. The tiering council is for the benefit of the site and the continual growth of the competitive community of the site.

If at any time the majority of the community takes issue with a decision, we want to know. While we may feel our decisions are best and will be reluctant to change opinions, we want to do the best by the community we can. Hopefully no one feels like their opinion isnt valuable in the future.

 

[Bruh]

ALRIGHT. I am just gonna go into in-depth "straight from the heart" analysis. No calcs. Alright, so Ninja as @notsoclutch did mention does suffer from "four-move syndrome". But, in respect to everyone else's opinion, is the only really valid reason Ninja has. Any mon that can have its moveset altered to your team is a little OP in my opinion and maybe others as well. Ninja is in fact cancerous because of its ability to shift to any designated mon it needs to be, whether it is a sweeper, wallbreaker (more common) etc. Its stats, albeit, are rather "fair". But its ability Protean allows its utility to jump in ways that shouldn't be allowed. There will always be decent checks for mons, but I believe if used correctly, it can be the toughest to check. If you look at its move pool, its variety is nothing less of "an ordinary OU mon". Most top tier OU mons have a job and execute it much better than others, some even evolved to have multiple tricks. One of those is in fact a mon we banned recently, Mega-Mawile. Its ability as a wall breaker and set-up sweeper make it a little overpowered on the offensive and even defensive side. But that is not of the matter, Ninja should be banned because of its ability to tear down teams and checks for other mons with its tricky move pool and extremely versatile ability. Most people really, don't know how to use it except for its strongest moves, but seriously, if you take a solid minute to go over how it can be executed, the results are a little large. Most use it because of its solid ability to assimilate itself into any pace of battle and take over with a strong Speed, and fair Sp. Atk. Unfortunately, there is so much more this mon can do, that I feel if left alone, people will begin to take advantage of how strong its utility really is.

 

[ThePokemonFanboy]

I feel as is it should not be banned. I think even with its versatile movepool its defenses are made of paper and hazards destroy it slowly especially if its a u-turn set. That being said I think it shouldn't be banned and if we were to maybe ban protein. It maybe fast and can run very many sets including utility but removing protein gets rid of the stab boosts which makes it weaker.

Sent from my LG-D800 using Tapatalk

 

[Bruh]

I feel as is it should not be banned. I think even with its versatile movepool its defenses are made of paper and hazards destroy it slowly especially if its a u-turn set. That being said I think it shouldn't be banned and if we were to maybe ban protein. It maybe fast and can run very many sets including utility but removing protein gets rid of the stab boosts which makes it weaker.

Sent from my LG-D800 using Tapatalk

Banning the ability Protean wouldn't be as viable as you think as there are only two Protean users, Ninja and Kecleon. Yes, what makes Ninja so viable is its movepool, solid stats and how those two conjunct with its ability Protean. The mon itself should be banned rather than its ability because that would just make it harder than it really is. What makes Ninja most overpowered is how his moves and stats can overall compliment its ability. If you think the ability itself should be banned, that would just be making things more difficult than it has to be. Pointing out the ability, would mean pointing out mons that have near to nothing to do with Ninjas problem, like Kecleon.

 

[Martin]

I've always thought that 4MSS was a pretty poor argument against this things ban on the basis that it isn't Greninja v.s. the entire opposing team. What you have is Greninja+5 teammates versus the opposing team. You cover what Greninja doesn't, and you attempt to overload its checks by pairing it with things that share said checks (offensive synergy). It is basically the entire way that offense functions, and it is why elecspam and darkspam (and, in XY, birdspam) got so popular.

What sets Greninja apart from other offensive Pokémon is a: STAB everything and b: absolutely stupid versatility. Back in XY, there were a number of global answers for Greninja (it actively chose between getting walled by Ferrothorn, getting walled by Mega Venusaur and getting walled by [insert fat water here] and it had basically one viable set (special attacker; I guess it had Spikes too but quite frankly Spikes Greninja both was-and still is--complete and utter garbage). However, with the dawn of ORAS it got Gunk Shot, Low Kick and Ice Punch: three moves which opened up so many options for it. You still have the classically-flawed SpA set, but now you also have mixed attacker and physical attacker on top of this. This allows it to choose exactly what checks/counters it and makes it the single most splashable Pokémon in the game as a result. Similarly, it literally chooses what it helps overload based on its teammates.

This allows it to have immense utility as well as near-uncounterability (the only OU-viable counters we have are Chansey, Alomomola and Porygon2: all of which are really funning passive and the latter of which is outclassed by things like Chansey, M-Latias, Clefable, [insert other BoltBeam users here] etc. for the most part. While I admit that Chansey is more splashable than it was this time last month due to favorable meta shifts and people realising that it has actual utility over Clefable on non-stall teams (I've seen an increase in Chansey Offense on the OU ladder, and I've seen it plugged onto more and more balance squads as of late)--although I think it is in part thanks to the discovery of CM+BoltBeam Blissey after the Shadow Tag ban on Smogon giving said Pokémon a niche on stall for its status as the only true counter that stall has to all Manaphy variants (even the almighty Chansey falls to TG+RD Manaphy) in conjunction with its poor synergy for Chansey for very obvious reasons--it doesn't change the fact that literally the only global answers to this thing are passive as f**k, and it doesn't change that the situational answers are way too easy to overload due to the sheer amount of variation that you can have within teams allowing you to splash this with basically any offensive partner that can help it overload shit.

When compared to other overload cores/archetypes such as darkspam, birdspam, keldeo+breloom/medicham etc., who simply hit targets with similar moves and are reliant on lure moves like Hidden Power Bug/Rock Tomb (Keld+Breloom/Medi), Grass Knot/Aerial Ace (Bisharp+Weavile), Natural Gift/Stone Edge (Pinsir+Talon) to not be hard-countered by certain Pokémon, as it simply has no one standard moveset, meaning that every attack it makes before its entire movset has been scouted out is a lure. This is not something that any one Pokémon should be capable of doing without the aid of an ability like Illusion (which actively conseals its identity, turning every time you bring it in into a case of luring), and as such it is problematic. Its a lot like Hoopa-U in this regard in that Hoopa-U forces a 50:50 every game between its Choice Band and Choice Specs sets, forcing the opponent to either make a hard, luck-based prediction that is the difference between losing a Pokémon and not losing a Pokémon (obviously this is risky can very easily screw you over later on, and it is the only way that you can get out of a first matchup against Hoopa without losing a 'mon) or for them to sack something off to scout out band v.s. specs (less risky as you can assess what you no longer need, but it also puts you at an instant 1-mon disadvantage). However, unlike Hoopa-U, Greninja can achieve this up to four times every game for its entire moveset. Wheras with Hoopa-U you know what its relatively safe switch-ins are from the moment you see which attacking stat it hits off of, you cannot know for Greninja until the moment you see that fourth move, and this is what makes it so problematic. Until you know which four of Gunk Shot, Ice Beam, Ice Punch, Grass Knot, Low Kick, Hidden Power Fire, Extrasensory, Hydro Pump and Dark Pulse its running, you cannot know what answers it. Repeating myself here, but this should only be possible with the aid of identity hiding. Greninja does not have this, and yet it still achives this.

tl;dr I think Greninja is borked.

I feel as is it should not be banned. I think even with its versatile movepool its defenses are made of paper and hazards destroy it slowly especially if its a u-turn set. That being said I think it shouldn't be banned and if we were to maybe ban protein. It maybe fast and can run very many sets including utility but removing protein gets rid of the stab boosts which makes it weaker.

Sent from my LG-D800 using Tapatalk

Please don't use Greninja's defenses as justification for why it shouldn't be banned. It is really funning terrible justification. VoltTurn support and double switching both exist, and we're not suspecting it on its ability to take hits here, and if it were valid reasoning then Skymin (one of the most blatantly broken Pokémon in the game) would currently be unbanned. Also, banning Protean does not lead to a desirable meta because the only thing that is broken with it is Greninja. Froakie, Frogadier and Kecleon are not broken with it. We also want to try and avoid another chicken clause (which I was, and still am, firmly against) if we can due to it adding unnecessary complexity to the tier list.

 

[Matt_192]

I've always thought that 4MSS was a pretty poor argument against this things ban on the basis that it isn't Greninja v.s. the entire opposing team. What you have is Greninja+5 teammates versus the opposing team. You cover what Greninja doesn't, and you attempt to overload its checks by pairing it with things that share said checks (offensive synergy). It is basically the entire way that offense functions, and it is why elecspam and darkspam (and, in XY, birdspam) got so popular.

What sets Greninja apart from other offensive Pokémon is a: STAB everything and b: absolutely stupid versatility. Back in XY, there were a number of global answers for Greninja (it actively chose between getting walled by Ferrothorn, getting walled by Mega Venusaur and getting walled by [insert fat water here] and it had basically one viable set (special attacker; I guess it had Spikes too but quite frankly Spikes Greninja both was-and still is--complete and utter garbage). However, with the dawn of ORAS it got Gunk Shot, Low Kick and Ice Punch: three moves which opened up so many options for it. You still have the classically-flawed SpA set, but now you also have mixed attacker and physical attacker on top of this. This allows it to choose exactly what checks/counters it and makes it the single most splashable Pokémon in the game as a result. Similarly, it literally chooses what it helps overload based on its teammates.

This allows it to have immense utility as well as near-uncounterability (the only OU-viable counters we have are Chansey, Alomomola and Porygon2: all of which are really funning passive and the latter of which is outclassed by things like Chansey, M-Latias, Clefable, [insert other BoltBeam users here] etc. for the most part. While I admit that Chansey is more splashable than it was this time last month due to favorable meta shifts and people realising that it has actual utility over Clefable on non-stall teams (I've seen an increase in Chansey Offense on the OU ladder, and I've seen it plugged onto more and more balance squads as of late)--although I think it is in part thanks to the discovery of CM+BoltBeam Blissey after the Shadow Tag ban on Smogon giving said Pokémon a niche on stall for its status as the only true counter that stall has to all Manaphy variants (even the almighty Chansey falls to TG+RD Manaphy) in conjunction with its poor synergy for Chansey for very obvious reasons--it doesn't change the fact that literally the only global answers to this thing are passive as f**k, and it doesn't change that the situational answers are way too easy to overload due to the sheer amount of variation that you can have within teams allowing you to splash this with basically any offensive partner that can help it overload shit.

When compared to other overload cores/archetypes such as darkspam, birdspam, keldeo+breloom/medicham etc., who simply hit targets with similar moves and are reliant on lure moves like Hidden Power Bug/Rock Tomb (Keld+Breloom/Medi), Grass Knot/Aerial Ace (Bisharp+Weavile), Natural Gift/Stone Edge (Pinsir+Talon) to not be hard-countered by certain Pokémon, as it simply has no one standard moveset, meaning that every attack it makes before its entire movset has been scouted out is a lure. This is not something that any one Pokémon should be capable of doing without the aid of an ability like Illusion (which actively conseals its identity, turning every time you bring it in into a case of luring), and as such it is problematic. Its a lot like Hoopa-U in this regard in that Hoopa-U forces a 50:50 every game between its Choice Band and Choice Specs sets, forcing the opponent to either make a hard, luck-based prediction that is the difference between losing a Pokémon and not losing a Pokémon (obviously this is risky can very easily screw you over later on, and it is the only way that you can get out of a first matchup against Hoopa without losing a 'mon) or for them to sack something off to scout out band v.s. specs (less risky as you can assess what you no longer need, but it also puts you at an instant 1-mon disadvantage). However, unlike Hoopa-U, Greninja can achieve this up to four times every game for its entire moveset. Wheras with Hoopa-U you know what its relatively safe switch-ins are from the moment you see which attacking stat it hits off of, you cannot know for Greninja until the moment you see that fourth move, and this is what makes it so problematic. Until you know which four of Gunk Shot, Ice Beam, Ice Punch, Grass Knot, Low Kick, Hidden Power Fire, Extrasensory, Hydro Pump and Dark Pulse its running, you cannot know what answers it. Repeating myself here, but this should only be possible with the aid of identity hiding. Greninja does not have this, and yet it still achives this.

tl;dr I think Greninja is borked.

Please don't use Greninja's defenses as justification for why it shouldn't be banned. It is really funning terrible justification. VoltTurn support and double switching both exist, and we're not suspecting it on its ability to take hits here, and if it were valid reasoning then Skymin (one of the most blatantly broken Pokémon in the game) would currently be unbanned. Also, banning Protean does not lead to a desirable meta because the only thing that is broken with it is Greninja. Froakie, Frogadier and Kecleon are not broken with it. We also want to try and avoid another chicken clause (which I was, and still am, firmly against) if we can due to it adding unnecessary complexity to the tier list.

This is literally all the justification we need to ban Greninja lmao - I'm so adding this to my essay thingy