Closed OU Viability Rankings

[Matt_192]

OU Viability Rankings​

Welcome to the PP OU Viability Rankings! Here, we will attempt to try and organise the usable Pokemon in the OU tier and below into 'tiers' and rank them accordingly. The main purpose of this thread is to get discussion going regarding how viable Pokemon are in the OU tier, as a good starting platform for either learning the tier or as a guide.

Just before I start, I would like to say that Pokemon aren't grouped by the roles they perform, e.g. there isn't one list for Special Sweepers and another list for Clerics. Instead all Pokemon are compared in one list.


S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.


S Rank

• Aegislash
• Greninja
• Landorus-I
• Mawile (Mega)
• Metagross (Mega)

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.

A+ Rank

• Altaria (Mega)
• Azumarill
• Bisharp
• Charizard (Mega-X)
• Clefable
• Deoxys-D
• Deoxys-S
• Diancie (Mega)
• Gengar
• Gyarados (Mega)
• Keldeo
• Landorus-T
• Latias
• Latios
• Lopunny (Mega)
• Manaphy
• Manectric (Mega)
• Rotom-W
• Sableye (Mega)
• Talonflame
• Venusaur (Mega)

A Rank

• Charizard (Mega-Y)
• Excadrill
• Ferrothorn
• Gyarados
• Heatran
• Hippowdon
• Latias (Mega)
• Scizor (Mega)
• Serperior
• Skarmory
• Slowbro (Mega)
• Thundurus
• Tornadus-T

A- Rank

• Alakazam (Mega)
• Garchomp
• Gardevoir (Mega)
• Gliscor
• Jirachi
• Kyurem-B
• Mew
• Politoed
• Raikou
• Slowbro
• Starmie
• Suicune
• Tyranitar

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

B+ Rank

• Alakazam
• Breloom
• Celebi
• Chansey
• Diggersby
• Dragalge
• Heracross (Mega)
• Klefki
• Magnezone
• Mamoswine
• Pinsir (Mega)
• Sceptile (Mega)
• Scolipede
• Slowking
• Swampert (Mega)
• Togekiss
• Volcarona
• Weavile

B Rank

• Amoonguss
• Azelf
• Beedrill (Mega)
• Chesnaught
• Crawdaunt
• Empoleon
• Feraligatr
• Gallade (Mega)
• Garchomp (Mega)
• Houndoom (Mega)
• Kabutops
• Kingdra
• Mandibuzz
• Quagsire
• Reuniclus
• Sceptile (Mega)
• Scizor
• Sharpedo (Mega)
• Tyranitar (Mega)
• Zapdos

B- Rank

• Bronzong
• Conkeldurr
• Dragonite
• Gastrodon
• Gothitelle
• Hydreigon
• Infernape
• Omastar
• Porygon2
• Tangrowth
• Tentacruel
• Terrakion
• Thundurus-T
• Tyrantrum
• Victini

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

C+ Rank

• Absol (Mega)
• Alomomola
• Blastoise (Mega)
• Cobalion
• Hawlucha
• Lucario
• Medicham (Mega)
• Pidgeot (Mega)
• Seismitoad
• Staraptor
• Sylveon
• Toxicroak

C Rank

• Ampharos (Mega)
• Cresselia
• Entei
• Goodra
• Heracross
• Krookodile
• Kyurem
• Pangoro
• Rhyperior
• Shuckle
• Whimsicott
• Wobbuffet

C- Rank

• Aggron (Mega)
• Banette (Mega)
• Blissey
• Camerupt (Mega)
• Chandelure
• Cofagrigus
• Dugtrio
• Espeon
• Forretress
• Gourgeist-XL
• Honchkrow
• Latios (Mega)
• Magneton
• Noivern
• Rotom-H
• Sableye
• Smeargle
• Zygarde

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.

D Rank

• Arcanine
• Cloyster
• Emboar
• Froslass
• Haxorus
• Jellicent
• Meloetta
• Metagross
• Mienshao
• Nidoking
• Nidoqueen
• Ninetales
• Roserade
• Salamence
• Shaymin
• Slurpuff
• Venusaur

E Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have a very low amount of viability, and are only included in these rankings because they are either listed under OU or get too much usage.

Spoiler: ”E Rank”

• Abomasnow (Mega)
• Aerodactyl
• Cacturne
• Crobat
• Diancie
• Ditto
• Doublade
• Durant
• Exploud
• Galvantula
• Gorebyss
• Heliolisk
• Jolteon
• Ludicolo
• Machamp
• Moltres
• Porygon-Z
• Shedinja
• Sigilyph
• Snorlax
• Swellow
• Tornadus
• Uxie
• Venomoth
• Virizion
• Weezing
• Xatu
• Yanmega
• Zoroark

Everything else = E Rank



Rules for Posting

• All points must be backed up by information, so I do not want to see anything like 'I wish Pokemon [x] was in such and such a rank
• The purpose of this thread is to get debates going, not for a place for people to spam. One lined, unnecessary comments will be deleted when seen.
• No flaming is needed. If you're in a debate, make it intelligently written.
• Rank shifts will not be decided on just usage alone. E.g. Landorus-T is definitely the most used Pokemon currently, but it will not be moved up to S for a number of issues.

Happy Posting! ~

 

[Mewtwo]

OU Viability Rankings​

Welcome to the PP OU Viability Rankings! Here, we will attempt to try and organise the usable Pokemon in the OU tier and below into 'tiers' and rank them accordingly. The main purpose of this thread is to get discussion going regarding how viable Pokemon are in the OU tier, as a good starting platform for either learning the tier or as a guide.

Just before I start, I would like to say that Pokemon aren't grouped by the roles they perform, e.g. there isn't one list for Special Sweepers and another list for Clerics. Instead all Pokemon are compared in one list.


S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.


S Rank

• Aegislash
• Greninja
• Landorus-I
• Mawile (Mega)
• Metagross (Mega)

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.

A+ Rank

• Altaria (Mega)
• Azumarill
• Bisharp
• Charizard (Mega-X)
• Clefable
• Deoxys-D
• Deoxys-S
• Diancie (Mega)
• Gengar
• Gyarados (Mega)
• Keldeo
• Landorus-T
• Latias
• Latios
• Lopunny (Mega)
• Manaphy
• Manectric (Mega)
• Rotom-W
• Sableye (Mega)
• Talonflame
• Venusaur (Mega)

A Rank

• Charizard (Mega-Y)
• Excadrill
• Ferrothorn
• Gyarados
• Heatran
• Hippowdon
• Latias (Mega)
• Scizor (Mega)
• Serperior
• Skarmory
• Slowbro (Mega)
• Thundurus
• Tornadus-T

A- Rank

• Alakazam (Mega)
• Garchomp
• Gardevoir (Mega)
• Gliscor
• Jirachi
• Kyurem-B
• Mew
• Politoed
• Raikou
• Slowbro
• Starmie
• Suicune
• Tyranitar

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

B+ Rank

• Alakazam
• Breloom
• Celebi
• Chansey
• Diggersby
• Dragalge
• Heracross (Mega)
• Klefki
• Magnezone
• Mamoswine
• Pinsir (Mega)
• Sceptile (Mega)
• Scolipede
• Slowking
• Swampert (Mega)
• Togekiss
• Volcarona
• Weavile

B Rank

• Amoonguss
• Azelf
• Beedrill (Mega)
• Chesnaught
• Crawdaunt
• Empoleon
• Feraligatr
• Gallade (Mega)
• Garchomp (Mega)
• Houndoom (Mega)
• Kabutops
• Kingdra
• Mandibuzz
• Quagsire
• Reuniclus
• Sceptile (Mega)
• Scizor
• Sharpedo (Mega)
• Tyranitar (Mega)
• Zapdos

B- Rank

• Bronzong
• Conkeldurr
• Dragonite
• Gastrodon
• Gothitelle
• Hydreigon
• Infernape
• Omastar
• Porygon2
• Tangrowth
• Tentacruel
• Terrakion
• Thundurus-T
• Tyrantrum
• Victini

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

C+ Rank

• Absol (Mega)
• Alomomola
• Blastoise (Mega)
• Cobalion
• Hawlucha
• Lucario
• Medicham (Mega)
• Pidgeot (Mega)
• Seismitoad
• Staraptor
• Sylveon
• Toxicroak

C Rank

• Ampharos (Mega)
• Cresselia
• Entei
• Goodra
• Heracross
• Krookodile
• Kyurem
• Pangoro
• Rhyperior
• Shuckle
• Whimsicott
• Wobbuffet

C- Rank

• Aggron (Mega)
• Banette (Mega)
• Blissey
• Camerupt (Mega)
• Chandelure
• Cofagrigus
• Dugtrio
• Espeon
• Forretress
• Gourgeist-XL
• Honchkrow
• Latios (Mega)
• Magneton
• Noivern
• Rotom-H
• Sableye
• Smeargle
• Zygarde

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.

D Rank

• Arcanine
• Cloyster
• Emboar
• Froslass
• Haxorus
• Jellicent
• Meloetta
• Metagross
• Mienshao
• Nidoking
• Nidoqueen
• Ninetales
• Roserade
• Salamence
• Shaymin
• Slurpuff
• Venusaur

E Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have a very low amount of viability, and are only included in these rankings because they are either listed under OU or get too much usage.

Spoiler: ”E Rank”

• Abomasnow (Mega)
• Aerodactyl
• Cacturne
• Crobat
• Diancie
• Ditto
• Doublade
• Durant
• Exploud
• Galvantula
• Gorebyss
• Heliolisk
• Jolteon
• Ludicolo
• Machamp
• Moltres
• Porygon-Z
• Shedinja
• Sigilyph
• Snorlax
• Swellow
• Tornadus
• Uxie
• Venomoth
• Virizion
• Weezing
• Xatu
• Yanmega
• Zoroark

Everything else = E Rank



Rules for Posting

• All points must be backed up by information, so I do not want to see anything like 'I wish Pokemon [x] was in such and such a rank
• The purpose of this thread is to get debates going, not for a place for people to spam. One lined, unnecessary comments will be deleted when seen.
• No flaming is needed. If you're in a debate, make it intelligently written.
• Rank shifts will not be decided on just usage alone. E.g. Landorus-T is definitely the most used Pokemon currently, but it will not be moved up to S for a number of issues.

Happy Posting! ~

Ok why is mega garchomp B rank? It should be at least A rank. It's an amazing mega that hits like a freight train. If u baton pass him a speed boost then Or get a sticky web up then he destroys Everything. I personally use him and on a wadger er battle I swept his team with mega garchomp. I always use him on my team and he is 1 of the best mons ever!

 

[Matt_192]

Ok why is mega garchomp B rank? It should be at least A rank. It's an amazing mega that hits like a freight train. If u baton pass him a speed boost then Or get a sticky web up then he destroys Everything. I personally use him and on a wadger er battle I swept his team with mega garchomp. I always use him on my team and he is 1 of the best mons ever!

Two things. A) All points need to be backed up with high level replays

Secondly, that's the exact problem. Sticky Web is a pretty bad strategy in OU, as the users are quite inviable and with amount of Defog/Rapid Spin users (not to mention Mega Sableye and Mega Diancie, which completely destroy Sticky Web and make it work against them). Because of this, Mega Chomp relies so heavily on team support which is why it's B rank. Not to mention that Greninja and Landorus-I, 2 S Rank mons, both run Ice type attacks, Ice Beam and HP Ice respectively which shread through Mega Chomp.

 

[Blaguard]

Personally I think Gallade should move up, perhaps to A. Since after the mega it moves up to the now-ubiquitous 110 speed tier (tying with the Latis, Gengar, and Megagross and outspeeding Keldeo and unboosted Charizard), and gains an excellent 165 base Atk (with potential to Swords Dance). Beyond that it has a solid typing with only 3 weaknesses, and a wide movepool (Drain Punch, Close Combat, Zen Headbutt, Psycho Cut, Ice Punch, Knock Off, Thunder Punch, Fire Punch, Shadow Sneak, Poison Jab, Leaf Blade, Stone Edge/Rock Slide, Earthquake, SD, and Destiny Bond) that give it a great offensive presence. Add in decent bulk with 68/95/115, as well as a niche in denying Mega Lop its free mega (since it can't get flinched and can KO with either STAB, even if it runs Drain Punch or Psycho Cut).

Its main weakness, fairies, and also dealt with fairly well if it runs the right set:
+2 252 Atk Mega Gallade Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 392-462 (99.4 - 117.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Seeing as most OU fairies (M-Garde, Sylveon, Azumarill, Pre-Mega Diancie, Dance-less Altaria) are outsped, getting a SD up on the switch-in can net you an easy KO.

Outside of that it dies to Tflame (unless it runs a gimmicky Rock Slide-bait set and tries to get it to switch in), but then again so do M-Lop, M-Meta, M-Venu, Conk, and a mess of other top-tier OU threats.

Beyond this it even has Stallbreaking potential, with access to Knock Off, Swords Dance, and powerful STAB in the form of Close Combat. This lets it deal with many walls fairly well, but in particular decimates Chansey. Also, while it doesn't KO, it can put Skarmory in a world of hurt:
+2 252 Atk Mega Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 265-313 (79.3 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And that's max Defense. Gallade is powerful.

All in all I hope you'll consider moving Gallade up a rank or two, as I certainly think it has the potential to deserve a higher slot.

 

[Matt_192]

Personally I think Gallade should move up, perhaps to A. Since after the mega it moves up to the now-ubiquitous 110 speed tier (tying with the Latis, Gengar, and Megagross and outspeeding Keldeo and unboosted Charizard), and gains an excellent 165 base Atk (with potential to Swords Dance). Beyond that it has a solid typing with only 3 weaknesses, and a wide movepool (Drain Punch, Close Combat, Zen Headbutt, Psycho Cut, Ice Punch, Knock Off, Thunder Punch, Fire Punch, Shadow Sneak, Poison Jab, Leaf Blade, Stone Edge/Rock Slide, Earthquake, SD, and Destiny Bond) that give it a great offensive presence. Add in decent bulk with 68/95/115, as well as a niche in denying Mega Lop its free mega (since it can't get flinched and can KO with either STAB, even if it runs Drain Punch or Psycho Cut).

Its main weakness, fairies, and also dealt with fairly well if it runs the right set:
+2 252 Atk Mega Gallade Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 392-462 (99.4 - 117.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Seeing as most OU fairies (M-Garde, Sylveon, Azumarill, Pre-Mega Diancie, Dance-less Altaria) are outsped, getting a SD up on the switch-in can net you an easy KO.

Outside of that it dies to Tflame (unless it runs a gimmicky Rock Slide-bait set and tries to get it to switch in), but then again so do M-Lop, M-Meta, M-Venu, Conk, and a mess of other top-tier OU threats.

Beyond this it even has Stallbreaking potential, with access to Knock Off, Swords Dance, and powerful STAB in the form of Close Combat. This lets it deal with many walls fairly well, but in particular decimates Chansey. Also, while it doesn't KO, it can put Skarmory in a world of hurt:
+2 252 Atk Mega Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 265-313 (79.3 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And that's max Defense. Gallade is powerful.

All in all I hope you'll consider moving Gallade up a rank or two, as I certainly think it has the potential to deserve a higher slot.

This is something I definitely considered when making the rankings. However, I definitely had a number of issues with moving it into any rank higher.

Issue 1) Speed tier. Yes, yes, 110 base is fast, but not fast enough. "It ties with Gengar and the Latis, etc" very true, but why would you ever risk it? Not to mention the fact that it is only base 80 speed prior to going mega, so most of OU will be outspeeding it at that point.

Issue 2) Aegislash. We can argue all day at how little use Aegislash gets in our meta (for some pretty strange reason since it's amazing when used to the best of its ability) but there is no denying it. Aegislash is basically an 100% stop to mGallade.

Issue 3) Its role. This is a bit of a strange one to be honest, but I'll explain it regardless. Mega Medicham seems to do its role very well - a wallbreaker. It switches in, doesn't need to set up, and hits hard with decent speed. Mega Gallade on the other hand requires a fair bit of team support to even let it set SD up effectively. High rankings threats like Talonflame, Mega Sableye, Mega Mawile (it's a role after Gallade sets up an SD and Intimidate goes off - you know how much I hate rols), Aegislash, Bulky DD Gyarados, etc can switch in when it SDs and OHKO it back which is why it is much harder for it to perform its role than something like Mega Medicham. To be honest, the only reason they aren't closer together is because of the likes of Landorus-I, Greninja and Aegislash.

Issue 4) Mega Gallade as a wallbreaker. Use Mega Medicham, lol. To put it simply, Mega Medicham doesn't need to set up, and you missed this one calc:
0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gallade: 224-266 (80.8 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (OHKO after CC Defence Drop)

Issue 5) Revenge Killers. With Mega Gallade's middling-semi-high speed tier, sure, it may be able to take out a threat, but it will literally get stopped by any common revenge killer: Tornadus-T, Scarf Landorus-T, Mega Alakazam, Mega Pidgeot, Talonflame, etc.

Issue 6) Fairies. Yes, I do agree with you that those calcs are pretty insane, but it requires Mega Gallade to have set up prior to that. I don't deny that Sylveon is stopped at +2, but 1v1 it will get stopped by Hyper Voice any day (especially given that most are Specs).

I wouldn't be against moving it to B+ possibly, but this would take quite a bit of backing and discussion to be honest.

 

[Blaguard]

This is something I definitely considered when making the rankings. However, I definitely had a number of issues with moving it into any rank higher.

Issue 1) Speed tier. Yes, yes, 110 base is fast, but not fast enough. "It ties with Gengar and the Latis, etc" very true, but why would you ever risk it? Not to mention the fact that it is only base 80 speed prior to going mega, so most of OU will be outspeeding it at that point.

Issue 2) Aegislash. We can argue all day at how little use Aegislash gets in our meta (for some pretty strange reason since it's amazing when used to the best of its ability) but there is no denying it. Aegislash is basically an 100% stop to mGallade.

Issue 3) Its role. This is a bit of a strange one to be honest, but I'll explain it regardless. Mega Medicham seems to do its role very well - a wallbreaker. It switches in, doesn't need to set up, and hits hard with decent speed. Mega Gallade on the other hand requires a fair bit of team support to even let it set SD up effectively. High rankings threats like Talonflame, Mega Sableye, Mega Mawile (it's a role after Gallade sets up an SD and Intimidate goes off - you know how much I hate rols), Aegislash, Bulky DD Gyarados, etc can switch in when it SDs and OHKO it back which is why it is much harder for it to perform its role than something like Mega Medicham. To be honest, the only reason they aren't closer together is because of the likes of Landorus-I, Greninja and Aegislash.

Issue 4) Mega Gallade as a wallbreaker. Use Mega Medicham, lol. To put it simply, Mega Medicham doesn't need to set up, and you missed this one calc:
0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gallade: 224-266 (80.8 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (OHKO after CC Defence Drop)

Issue 5) Revenge Killers. With Mega Gallade's middling-semi-high speed tier, sure, it may be able to take out a threat, but it will literally get stopped by any common revenge killer: Tornadus-T, Scarf Landorus-T, Mega Alakazam, Mega Pidgeot, Talonflame, etc.

Issue 6) Fairies. Yes, I do agree with you that those calcs are pretty insane, but it requires Mega Gallade to have set up prior to that. I don't deny that Sylveon is stopped at +2, but 1v1 it will get stopped by Hyper Voice any day (especially given that most are Specs).

I wouldn't be against moving it to B+ possibly, but this would take quite a bit of backing and discussion to be honest.

All fair points.
While Medicham does have more immediate power, there stands the fact that it doesn't get Knock Off and has to run HJK over CC (risking a miss and 50% of your HP as opposed to reducing your defenses but still getting a guaranteed hit). Doesn't make Gallade better at the role, but it's worth noting.

Overall I'd argue for moving Gallade up mainly based on its versatility. While Medicham functions better as a wallbreaker, it's generally confined to that role due to its (at this point) bad speed, whereas Gallade can function as a utility attacker (in a similar capacity to an offensive Latios or Gengar) or with Destiny Bond to go down with a bang (again, similar to Gengar, though it would consume your mega to do so). Then its Swords Dance/Poison Jab set goes a lot more toward beating out fairies than Medicham can hope for, seeing as it can either SD on the swap and then OHKO or just Poison Jab on the switch and secure the 2HKO, forfeiting its setup but still knocking out a key part of their team. And while it's not the easiest thing in the world to force a swap, it's very conceivable that an opponent would swap to their fairy to take out Gallade.

Overall I'd prefer to see it in A or A-, but I'd be satisfied with B+ if that's all everyone is comfortable with. In my opinion Gallade is a versatile, user-friendly mega and B just seems a bit low, but again, that's just me.

 

[Matt_192]

All fair points.
While Medicham does have more immediate power, there stands the fact that it doesn't get Knock Off and has to run HJK over CC (risking a miss and 50% of your HP as opposed to reducing your defenses but still getting a guaranteed hit). Doesn't make Gallade better at the role, but it's worth noting.

Overall I'd argue for moving Gallade up mainly based on its versatility. While Medicham functions better as a wallbreaker, it's generally confined to that role due to its (at this point) bad speed, whereas Gallade can function as a utility attacker (in a similar capacity to an offensive Latios or Gengar) or with Destiny Bond to go down with a bang (again, similar to Gengar, though it would consume your mega to do so). Then its Swords Dance/Poison Jab set goes a lot more toward beating out fairies than Medicham can hope for, seeing as it can either SD on the swap and then OHKO or just Poison Jab on the switch and secure the 2HKO, forfeiting its setup but still knocking out a key part of their team. And while it's not the easiest thing in the world to force a swap, it's very conceivable that an opponent would swap to their fairy to take out Gallade.

Overall I'd prefer to see it in A or A-, but I'd be satisfied with B+ if that's all everyone is comfortable with. In my opinion Gallade is a versatile, user-friendly mega and B just seems a bit low, but again, that's just me.

Fair enough

I think my main issue with it is 4MSS. Seeing as its first two slots are almost guaranteed to be taken up by STABs, it doesn't really give it many options. Protect can be used to avoid the 80 base before Mega, but then you skimp on coverage. The same happens with SD, and although you raise your attack, you end up being checked by a lot still. Mega Gallade has such a diverse movepool, but it seems to be hurt by only really allowing for 2 coverage moves. I really wouldn't mind moving it to B+ if it gets backing though.

 

[notsoclutch]

I'd like to propose two changes

Deoxys-S A+ --> S
Deoxys-D A+ --> S

These two are far and away the best hazard support Pokemon in the game (not just in OU) and this should be reflected in their rankings. On top of that, Deoxys-S is an amazing revenge killer and Deoxys-D is relevant as a hulking mass of a mixed wall. These mons are far too good to be a rank below something as manageable as Metagross.

 

[Matt_192]

I'd like to propose two changes

Deoxys-S A+ --> S
Deoxys-D A+ --> S

These two are far and away the best hazard support Pokemon in the game (not just in OU) and this should be reflected in their rankings. On top of that, Deoxys-S is an amazing revenge killer and Deoxys-D is relevant as a hulking mass of a mixed wall. These mons are far too good to be a rank below something as manageable as Metagross.

100% with these. Honestly not sure why they weren't S in the first place.

Also, as Hoopa-U isn't on this list yet, how does a nom for S sound as well?

 

[tmbate]

100% with these. Honestly not sure why they weren't S in the first place.

Also, as Hoopa-U isn't on this list yet, how does a nom for S sound as well?

This is gonna come back to the discussion in shout box isn't it. Hoopa U is strong no denying but its problems as previously stated come in the form of its anything but stellar 60 defence and its barely better 80 speed. Combined with a x4 bug weakness just about and pokemon with U-turn can take it out with very little difficulty. Even at max defence facing off with a tornadus (chose a random non stab mon) tornadus has a jolly nature and no attack investment while Hoopa is bold with max defence, U-Turn is still doing 66.4 - 78.4% and if u start giving it attack investment at 252 attack even with a jolly nature Tornadus is still doing 83.7 - 99.6%. This is with no stab and a neutral (attack wise) nature. And because its speed is so low Hoopa even against something like Mega Scizor (ik nobody is keeping hoopa in vs it I'm making a point), if you want that defence investment to survive a u turn and still want a solid amount of output (which requires ev's to attack) then once again your outsped. Is Hoopa U a threat absolutely. But not an S rank threat in my opinion. Its too easily worked around and knocked out.

 

[Matt_192]

This is gonna come back to the discussion in shout box isn't it. Hoopa U is strong no denying but its problems as previously stated come in the form of its anything but stellar 60 defence and its barely better 80 speed. Combined with a x4 bug weakness just about and pokemon with U-turn can take it out with very little difficulty. Even at max defence facing off with a tornadus (chose a random non stab mon) tornadus has a jolly nature and no attack investment while Hoopa is bold with max defence, U-Turn is still doing 66.4 - 78.4% and if u start giving it attack investment at 252 attack even with a jolly nature Tornadus is still doing 83.7 - 99.6%. This is with no stab and a neutral (attack wise) nature. And because its speed is so low Hoopa even against something like Mega Scizor (ik nobody is keeping hoopa in vs it I'm making a point), if you want that defence investment to survive a u turn and still want a solid amount of output (which requires ev's to attack) then once again your outsped. Is Hoopa U a threat absolutely. But not an S rank threat in my opinion. Its too easily worked around and knocked out.

Again, you're thinking about it in completely the wrong way. At no point is Hoopa-U going to try and start taking on physically offensive threats, priority users, pursuit trappers, etc. Why are we even saying that U-turn mons can take it on (because they obviously can, it doesn't need to be repeatedly stated), when we need to focus on what Hoopa-U does to stall?

Please go through stall teams and find one Pokemon that Specs Hoopa-U doesn't obliterate. Hey, I hate stall as much as the next guy, but if a Pokemon is in a tier that literally 6-0s that style of play then it isn't doing any good for the tier, and this argument is consistent for Greninja making balance teams bad.

Anyway, back on topic as this is about Hoopa-U, not Greninja. You've also appeared to not discuss his actually stellar 160 base attack and 170 special attack, allowing him to run mixed sets, physical sets, special sets, etc with EASE. Scarf sets can be run despite being less effective, although you can't deny that it allows Hoopa-U to take on the faster threats which you say it has a problem with.

Tl;dr is this: Hoopa-U has trouble switching in on the majority of the meta and I completely get that. However, combine it with a VoltTurn team + Rotom-W and it allows you to a) burn the main physical threats your opponent has, b) guarantee a safe switch-in and c) completely take apart stall and balance immediately.

 

[tmbate]

He absolutely has great attack stats. And nobody in their right mind would leave Hoopa in on a bug type. Specs may be powerful but its also simple enough to work around. After all its left locked into a single move. And u can say oh well then go life orb but that drops the attack power enough that more than the likes of shuckle and regis ice and steel can survive a hit. And it only realistically takes 1 maybe 2 hits from physical moves to crumple it like tinfoil. Its like saying gengar should be put in S rank. Except gengar has more speed than bulk. So do we put up every mon who has one or two super strong stats in S rank? Thats ridiculous. Theres a clear and fairly common way to counter Hoopa U so why should it got banned to S rank when plenty of other mons like it r left in A+?

 

[Matt_192]

He absolutely has great attack stats. And nobody in their right mind would leave Hoopa in on a bug type. Specs may be powerful but its also simple enough to work around. After all its left locked into a single move. And u can say oh well then go life orb but that drops the attack power enough that more than the likes of shuckle and regis ice and steel can survive a hit. And it only realistically takes 1 maybe 2 hits from physical moves to crumple it like tinfoil. Its like saying gengar should be put in S rank. Except gengar has more speed than bulk. So do we put up every mon who has one or two super strong stats in S rank? Thats ridiculous. Theres a clear and fairly common way to counter Hoopa U so why should it got banned to S rank when plenty of other mons like it r left in A+?

Nope, you're looking at it wrong again. Hoopa-U needs to change moves about twice to deal with stall - Thunderbolt to deal with Mandibuzz and Psyshock to deal with Chansey. Outside of that, you can basically just spam Dark Pulse and Focus Blast.

Also, you're really understating it. Yeah, specs can be worked around - it can on any mon. But when you realise it has 170 base special attack + specs, even if you switch in a resist, on an offensive team that mon is going to be taking a LOT.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 143-168 (44 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Draco Meteor will do just over a half with Scarf Hydreigon. Tldr: it doesn't matter that it can't change moves.


The fact that you bring up Gengar shows you aren't listening to the main argument. It invalidates stall and this is one of the main reasons why it should be S. No Pokemon in the tier other than Greninja can do that to a playstyle. Its stats were brought up as you seem to be denying the fact that Hoopa-U can 2HKO basically the entire tier.

Why are you bringing up Shuckle and the Regis lmfao, they're actual garbage. If you give it Life Orb, yeah, you cut your power down - but it doesn't need to run LO (see above)


"Its like saying gengar should be put in S rank"
Um, no - not even close.

 

[tmbate]

Saying switching in takes a lot is obvious. Thats the case in plenty of cases outside this. Yes it could get an easy sweep in theory except for its speed. It moves slower than a solid chunk of the tier. I brought up those 3 idiots because any of them can take a hit from Hoopa and u said to name 1. So i named 3. Hoopa breaks stall yes but if the team ur battling isnt a stall team then im betting at least 2-3 mons (see tier threats like keldeo tflame excadrill etc) Hoopa isnt fast enough to take out common speed sets from mons like these. I could list for eons physical attackers that are faster and viable. Yes hoopa avoids them and can challenge bulkier mons like skarmory and slowbro but most good teams will have 1-2 physical attackers at least and having hoopa forced to bounce around to hit them. It cant switch into a mon like slowbro without being ready to take a scald or skarmory (more importantly) without risking a brave bird which does on from a defensive skarmory on a bold 252 def hoopa u 34-41% everytime u want to switch hoopa into one of these walls. And with those stats skarm can likely either survive a hit if u give speed investment over offensive power or outspeed if u choose to take the power. And if u choose to take speed and attack then suddenly that 0 atk skarmory brave birdis doing just over half health. Which makes it a very unsafe switch. This is one example of course so i wouldnt expect that to convince u. That would be silly. But we can next look at sylveon which is even more specially bulky and can easily knock hoopa out back. These 2 are very much reverses of each other wall wise but both can hit hoopa hard enough to do over half-ohko ing it. So if hoopa cant switch in safely it needs a teammate to fall to the wall just to take it out. Obviously there r work arounds to this. The obvious one being voltturn which u of course brought up but haveing to have a specific team to use a given mon makes any team with it fairly predictable (ik those aernt the only mons on the team). So can it work with another team? Of course but not nearly as effectivly.

 

[Matt_192]

Saying switching in takes a lot is obvious. Thats the case in plenty of cases outside this. Yes it could get an easy sweep in theory except for its speed.

Once again, you're not reading my posts. I have not said 'sweep' at any point in this discussion - however, I've said that it can 6-0 stall teams because a) Specs Hoopa-U can easily 2HKO everything on stall and b) it outspeeds almost everything on stall as it is, making its low speed when compared to offense irrelevant.

It moves slower than a solid chunk of the tier. I brought up those 3 idiots because any of them can take a hit from Hoopa and u said to name 1. So i named 3. Hoopa breaks stall yes but if the team ur battling isnt a stall team then im betting at least 2-3 mons (see tier threats like keldeo tflame excadrill etc) Hoopa isnt fast enough to take out common speed sets from mons like these.

Right, a few things

• When I said name one, I meant name a viable one - I thought that much was obvious but clearly not .
• Secondly, not once here have I said that Hoopa-U can specifically OHKO everything on stall - I said it can 6-0 and deal with everything on stall. So what if Regi(crap) + Shuckle can take a hit if they can barely do anything back? Also, do your calcs before posting stuff as fact:
• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Regice: 286-338 (95 - 112.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
  
• (You also said with LO for some reason so here ya go) 252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Regice: 250-294 (83 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (KO after Rocks)
• Come up with some better stall examples.
• Hoopa-U can beat non-specs Keldeo 1v1 so I don't really know why you brought that up
• It's irrelevant if the team is stall or not. The fact is that it makes stall invalid, and it doesn't matter if you run into it or not. That's like saying hazards are bad because Magic Bounce exists - Magic Bounce is definitely more situational than seeing stall vs seeing offence but the point stands. Also, everyone seemingly runs Chansey on their teams on this site for a reason I'm still trying to work out to this day which Hoopa-U actually destroys.
• Can we stop bringing up physical threats? Yes, I am perfectly aware that these mons beat it - bring up another argument instead.

I could list for eons physical attackers that are faster and viable. Yes hoopa avoids them and can challenge bulkier mons like skarmory and slowbro but most good teams will have 1-2 physical attackers at least and having hoopa forced to bounce around to hit them.

What on Earth are you going on about? This statement goes to show that you're definitely an offensive player as you're showing a clear lack of understanding of different team archetypes, namely stall. In what world is stall going to have two physical threats that are good enough to take this thing on, outside of a possible semi-stall team. Secondly, if Hoopa-U can get a safe switch in on these mons like Skarm/Slowbro (which it should do if you've built your team correctly, as Hoopa-U is incredible in conjunction with VoltTurn + Rotom-W) then it can get an attack off with ease. Let's be honest, you're probably going to switch, but this will end in one of five possible scenarios:

• Scenario 1) You make the switch and the opposing Hoopa-U gets off an attack (but doesn't get the necessary read), which is likely going to do ~40-50% to the switch-in, dependant on whatever Pokemon you send out.
• Scenario 2) You do the same but your opponent misses. This is only the case for Gunk Shot and Focus Blast I believe.
• Scenario 3) You make the switch but your opponent makes the read and either flat out OHKO's or puts the switch-in at a very low percentage. Here, just by applying slight offensive pressure off a read, it puts the Hoopa-U at a very strong advantage, eliminating one of the main switch-ins or physical attackers
• Scenario 4) You risk it and stay in, but the Hoopa-U predicts you to stay in and OHKO's you/deals ~90% to you/drops you to Sturdy.
• Scenario 5) You stay in as Hoopa-U makes the switch predict. However, this is only going to get you far in certain matchups: Slowbro may get a burn off with Scald but that's about it, whereas a mon like Quagsire may be able to do a little bit of work, but again, this is all matchup dependant)

Wow, that was a lot to reply to 4 lines lol

It cant switch into a mon like slowbro without being ready to take a scald or skarmory (more importantly) without risking a brave bird which does on from a defensive skarmory on a bold 252 def hoopa u 34-41% everytime u want to switch hoopa into one of these walls. And with those stats skarm can likely either survive a hit if u give speed investment over offensive power or outspeed if u choose to take the power. And if u choose to take speed and attack then suddenly that 0 atk skarmory brave birdis doing just over half health. Which makes it a very unsafe switch. This is one example of course so i wouldnt expect that to convince u. That would be silly. But we can next look at sylveon which is even more specially bulky and can easily knock hoopa out back. These 2 are very much reverses of each other wall wise but both can hit hoopa hard enough to do over half-ohko ing it. So if hoopa cant switch in safely it needs a teammate to fall to the wall just to take it out. Obviously there r work arounds to this. The obvious one being voltturn which u of course brought up but haveing to have a specific team to use a given mon makes any team with it fairly predictable (ik those aernt the only mons on the team). So can it work with another team? Of course but not nearly as effectivly.

Right, there's a lot to go through here, so:

• Hoopa-U isn't going to straight switch. It will come in off a faint/slower VoltTurn/read. Also, Scald is doing around 25% (did the calc) and relies on you getting the burn, not to mention that specs sets won't really care.
• Don't really know why you did the Bold 252 calc but ok, read above - it's not going to straight switch. Hoopa-U can wait for a VoltTurn which will break your sturdy, and proceed to OHKO physically defensive sets with Thunderbolt, and always OHKO specially defensive variants (upwards of 106.5% on 252/252+ Skarms)
• Skarm isn't going to outspeed. If you're trying to run some speed on Skarm, then fine, but please never run enough to creep base 80s + however much the opposing Hoopa-U wants to run - it's just not happening.
• You're right. It's one situational example which Hoopa-U has a way around from a teambuilding standpoint.

And now Sylveon:

• (Skipping to the end of this paragraph first) How is running VoltTurn predictable in the slightest? Sure, in this meta VoltTurn is probably one of the best team archetypes, but most of the play with these teams comes down to reads and prediction.
• Yep, Sylveon is a great special wall, as are things like Chansey, etc. That's why Hoopa-U has Psyshock
• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 373-441 (95.3 - 112.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (KO after rocks)
  
• I admit Hyper Voice OHKOs - that much is a definite. However, you know I'm just going to say the same stuff about team buildup, switching in appropriately, playing safely and conservatively, making reads, etc.
• Slow U-turn from something like Scizor allows Scizor to take an attack (or even scare out the Sylveon) and get switch initiative either way.

 

[tmbate]

Ur absolutely right that Im an offensive player. I think I've built maybe 2 stall teams ever. But since it's release I have battled many hoopa's and I can't ever remember one getting a kill on me. If its going S rank it shouldn't be just useful against stall teams. It should be able to do something on everything. Thats why I'm saying A+ at highest. Is it powerful? Absolutely. Does it have specific teams it can beat? duh. But it also has teams that its all but useless on. Greninja, Lando I, Mega Meta, they all have something they excel in like Hoopa. But each of them is able to battle against different teams effectively. Whereas hoopa handles stall teams and the 1 maybe 2 walls on balanced teams. But it can't take a hit from any offensive threats. Unless ur battling in a draft format you won't know what your opponent is gonna bring pre match so theres just as high a chance of seeing mostly/all offense as there is of seeing stall. Thats why hoopa isn't S rank. S ranks seem to be mons that can hold their own against any type of team.

 

[Matt_192]

Ur absolutely right that Im an offensive player. I think I've built maybe 2 stall teams ever. But since it's release I have battled many hoopa's and I can't ever remember one getting a kill on me. If its going S rank it shouldn't be just useful against stall teams. It should be able to do something on everything. Thats why I'm saying A+ at highest. Is it powerful? Absolutely. Does it have specific teams it can beat? duh. But it also has teams that its all but useless on. Greninja, Lando I, Mega Meta, they all have something they excel in like Hoopa. But each of them is able to battle against different teams effectively. Whereas hoopa handles stall teams and the 1 maybe 2 walls on balanced teams. But it can't take a hit from any offensive threats. Unless ur battling in a draft format you won't know what your opponent is gonna bring pre match so theres just as high a chance of seeing mostly/all offense as there is of seeing stall. Thats why hoopa isn't S rank. S ranks seem to be mons that can hold their own against any type of team.

This shows a clear lack of not reading the rest of my posts for about the third time. Have you not realised yet that Hoopa-U can deal with a lot of the specially attacking threats in the tier, not to mention that it can do an astronomical amount of damage on a read.

I'd continue this post but you clearly haven't read my last few posts in their entirety if you're just talking about straight 1v1s.

 

[Martin]

Hoopa-U is completely broken and as such it should be S-rank by default.

Specs has literally 2 things which can take a hit on switch-in and then still eliminate it on the following turn: Mega Audino and AV Escavalier. Literally all of your so-called "switch-ins" for it get bodied by one of Psyshock, Focus Blast or Thunderbolt (for the sake of covering all bases here despite you for some retarded reason not listing Mandibuzz), and the fact that your choices for guaranteed switch-in are an inviable mega and a one-time stop really shows that this thing is easily s-rank material.

Also the fact that you've never seen a Hoopa-U get a kill means that your opponents were obviously completely stupid, because if you are playing Hoopa-U in such a way that means that you aren't scoring a minimum of one kill per game you need to seriously get help as it is literally the easiest thing in the game to do. Rotom-W+Lando-T+Hoopa-U is literally the most broken core in the game, and it allows Hoopa-U to get onto the field for free versus basically anything. Once its on the field, that's a kill in the bag.

Hoopa-U is low-risk high-reward, extremely restrictive from a teambuilder perspective (seriously literally any non-HO squad without ScarfTar is just plain bad in the current metagame because of this one Pokémon) and it is completely broken.

tl;dr: Hoopa-U-->S