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Active Price Tiering Suggestion

Discussion in 'Rules and Suggestions' started by WSawyer, May 4, 2016.

  1. WSawyer

    WSawyer Pokémon Champion Will Not Fall Donor

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    Ya, I get where the issues are stemming from, but I think we could find an effective way of enforcing the split if we brainstorm a little. And it's not like there will be no rules, just different rules for different things. It's just annoying when you have 40pc left and nothing you can do with it...Y'know?
     
  2. WSawyer

    WSawyer Pokémon Champion Will Not Fall Donor

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    ROUGH TIERING SYSTEM

    Perfect, 6IV, Custom, Battle-Ready Pokemon-
    60PC

    Pre-made Stock Pokemon-
    55PC

    Items (to be traded with *Breeding level Pokemon)-
    25PC
    (to be traded with *Dex Filler level Pokemon)- 15PC

    *Breeding Pokemon (5IV, first evolutions, non-specialized, hidden ability, no item)-
    20PC

    Pokemon Editing Services- 10PC per change (IV etc.)

    *Dex Fillers and Pokerus (less than 5IV's, random stats and natures)- 5PC


     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 8, 2016
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  3. Marc

    Marc Pokémon Champion Dex Contributor

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    Pricing looks ok, I am up for anything that helps to kick start the economy again
     
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  4. yunerotroy

    yunerotroy Youngster Joey

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    looks good
     
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  5. WSawyer

    WSawyer Pokémon Champion Will Not Fall Donor

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  6. WSawyer

    WSawyer Pokémon Champion Will Not Fall Donor

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    ROUGH TIERING SYSTEM 2

    Perfect, 6IV, Custom, Battle-Ready Pokemon-
    60PC

    Pre-made Stock Pokemon-
    55PC

    Items (to be traded with *Breeding level Pokemon)-
    25PC
    (to be traded with *Dex Filler level Pokemon)- 20PC

    *Breeding Pokemon (5IV, first evolutions, non-specialized, hidden ability, no item)-
    20PC

    *Dex Fillers and Pokerus (less than 5IV's, random stats and natures, no item)- 15PC

    Pokemon Editing Services-
    10PC per change (IV etc.)

    Pokemon Cloning Services-
    10PC per clone​
     
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  7. Marc

    Marc Pokémon Champion Dex Contributor

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    Seems a better distribution of PC on that, I do think that there needs to be a bit more consistency on how people/shops in general price their pokemon. An interesting post came up yesterday about "why do bred pokemon get charged differently" and whilst it is obvious, massive undercutting wont always help the site or users but I guess that is something that might be able to be looked at after this change!
     
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  8. notsoclutch

    notsoclutch Rare Breed Staff Member Admin Let It Reign Battler Donor

    I'd move editing up a bit. It takes as much work as genning. At least above things like dex fillers. High level breeding should probably be a niche market at a premium not considered lesser than genning. Not sure how best to represent this group though.
     
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  9. Saraceaser

    Saraceaser Pokémon Champion

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    This is true. Editing does take about as much work as genning all together, and breeding does take some work to get nice Pokemon...
     
  10. WSawyer

    WSawyer Pokémon Champion Will Not Fall Donor

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    Okay, thanks for the suggestions :)
    The point of having editing low was so that you could charge 10PC per change (6IV's = 60PC). But it could be moved up to 15 PC per change, or 40PC total. And for the breeding, this only applies to non-high level breeding (discards). I believe high level breeding should have it's own forum with higher prices.
     
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  11. AceBreeder-Brock

    AceBreeder-Brock Administrator Staff Member Admin Will Not Fall Trusted Seller Badge Smaug Tournament Coordinator Journalist Battler Friendzilla Donor Dex Contributor Iron Will

    eh idk about this seems really low for some things don't think a lot of people are going to go through the time it takes to make that certain amount of pc but thats coming from the guy who didn't see a sale since forever xd
    basically right now the min price is 60 PC per poke/service if we have prices lower then that like what your suggesting then people would be able to sell stuff like custom pokes for an even lower price to the new absolute min just to get sales.
    maybe for the rest of ORAS's life span but am going to hope everyone goes back to the normal rate it was before when Sun/Moon get's released.
     
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  12. WSawyer

    WSawyer Pokémon Champion Will Not Fall Donor

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    I see what you're saying, but the point of this is to prevent the selling of cheaper customs, and implement the selling of cheaper everything else. Because certain things like items and dex fillers just aren't being sold at all...
     
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  13. AceBreeder-Brock

    AceBreeder-Brock Administrator Staff Member Admin Will Not Fall Trusted Seller Badge Smaug Tournament Coordinator Journalist Battler Friendzilla Donor Dex Contributor Iron Will

    So a min price of how much you can sell a custom (60) stays, but min prices for other goods/services are lower so th can actually be sold since customs right now are being sold at the lowest price
    kk gotcha ya as long as nobodys forced to sell at the min price then it sounds good. Still not sure if sellers would do it unless its bulk sometimes its not worth the time like if someone orders one dex filler for ex.
     
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  14. WSawyer

    WSawyer Pokémon Champion Will Not Fall Donor

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    Ya, you got it :) Maybe they won't, but I'm hopeful. It would be nice to at least have the option.
     
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  15. notsoclutch

    notsoclutch Rare Breed Staff Member Admin Let It Reign Battler Donor

    As someone who used to do editing, it isnt as much an issue at a per stat thing as it is just setting something up. I know some add on extra charges based on the number of things changed. Ive had people ask for a change of ball and others who want shiny + 6 ivs + perfect ev spread. The difference in effort is very minimal between these two. I'd bump the base rate up and allow sellers to determine what they want to make each individual thing worth.
     
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  16. WSawyer

    WSawyer Pokémon Champion Will Not Fall Donor

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    I think I understand what you're saying (but maybe not). I did figure that it would be a similar amount of effort, no matter how many changes are made. However, the point of this isn't necessarily to benefit the sellers, but just get more PC exchanged on the site. I believe that that overall the sellers could make more sales by editing for less.

    I know for myself, I have a lot of nearly-perfect Pokemon, that only need one or two changes to be perfect. In such a case, I'm much more likely to pay 20-40 PC to fix my Pokemon than 60 for a new one. If you're saying that I should use a flat-rate instead of a per-change rate, then I can make that change and we can see how it looks :) I'm just worried that people might try to abuse the lower price and possibly get a perfect Pokemon for less than 60PC.

    The benefit of the per-change rate is that someone has to breed and train their own Pokemon to 5IV's with perfect EV's, egg moves and maybe HA, in order to get an edit to Perfect 6IV for 10PC (which they're not likely to do, therefore most sales will still end up in the 40-50PC range).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 11, 2016
  17. WSawyer

    WSawyer Pokémon Champion Will Not Fall Donor

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    ROUGH TIERING SYSTEM 3

    Perfect, 6IV, Custom, Battle-Ready Pokemon-
    60PC min

    Pre-made Stock Pokemon-
    55PC min​

    Pokemon Editing Services- 20PC min (maybe with extra 5PC charges per change)

    Items (to be traded with *Breeding level Pokemon)-
    25PC min
    (to be traded with *Dex Filler level Pokemon)- 20PC min

    *Breeding Pokemon (5IV, first evolutions, non-specialized, hidden ability, no item)-
    20PC

    *Dex Fillers and Pokerus (less than 5IV's, random stats and natures, no item)- 15PC

    Pokemon Cloning Services-
    10PC min per clone​
     
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  18. Matt_192

    Matt_192 Official Server Crasher Staff Member Admin Will Not Fall Journalist Friendzilla Donor Dex Contributor Iron Will

    Right. I may not agree with a lot of your pricing decisions here, but I have to say no to a few various things. Firstly, anything below 20PC is basically going to be a no - 20PC worked perfectly fine for the last 2 years and more on the site and there isn't a single service that deserves to be lower than that. Before the raise to 60PC, we had no complaints about services at 20PC being "too high" - no to this.

    As for the general idea of pushing up the costs of certain services.... I'm rather mixed on it. I do like the idea that we should separate out the prices of certain things, but like I said in my first paragraph, things should not be too low. We should be looking at a bare minimum of 20PC for things like items and dex fillers, 30-35PC for clones (maybe), etc. Your pricing on breeding Pokemon is a bit harsh IMHO. Whilst I agree that you aren't exactly paying for much, a lot of time probably went into breeding it so it's a bit harsh to just say '20PC' and leave it. My other main problem is that it just complicates things to an unneccessary level, and us staff already have to put up with enough garbage spam posting, people not reading the rules, etc.

    I'll be quoting a number of posts from this thread as well to get through all of the arguments.

    Does a breeder forum really fix the issue? At this point, it's safe to say that if you don't have Homebrew/Gateway/CFW/Access to editing saves, your ability to gen has dropped to near 0. Admittedly, with @Krelbit 's help, a lot of users do now have access to genning and Homebrew, but at this point it means that the users who are trying to breed are simply not going to do well as these shops. Also, if you're trying to promote breeding legitimate KB Pokemon, this seems like the least likely thing you'd want to support - 20PC for a 5IV, KB bred Level 1? It takes time man.

    PC stall is a big deal, but I can honestly put this one down to sellers leaving. People like @Krelbit , @Miles8088 and more have become discouraged from selling which has led to people like @CaitsCustoms taking over. I'm not making any criticisms of their shops, but they objectively sell at a lower price point than the old IATS sellers which restricts PC flow as well - if you're trying to promote PC flow, again, why are you supporting PC guidelines which are lower than what we already have? I understand your point about morality, but again, PC price points are lower.

    This I can actually get behind. When the new price point of 60PC was announced, I was slightly annoyed as services like items simply aren't worth 60PC at all - 20PC seems like a reasonable price point, and while you may argue that 'not all items are worth 20PC' then it comes down to this:
    • If we make all items worth less than 20PC minimum, then we restrict PC flow which is something you're trying to help
    • If we make all items 60PC, we, again, restrict PC flow and make less people inclined to buy items quickly
    • If we make all items vary in price point, it simply gets far too confusing for the seller and possibly the consumer
    Tldr; I would support a 20PC price point for items

    This ^

    At this point, I can honestly estimate that about 30% of all new members don't bother to read the rules when they join the site, set up shops for 10PC/5PC and then get sales before we really have time to stop them. Staff members from a geographical perspective can, yes, get on at effectively any time, but like @Chaos said, we have lives as well. These shops need to be continually shut down or changed and it's extremely aggravating - by having multiple price points for different services increases confusion, makes people less inclined to start selling on this site, increases the risk of error -> more staff needed -> comes out of their time, etc.
     
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  19. WSawyer

    WSawyer Pokémon Champion Will Not Fall Donor

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    Thanks @Matt_192 for the thorough response :) You've given me a lot to reply to haha...

    To start off with, the only services listed here below 20PC are dex fillers (which take various, but often very low amounts of effort to obtain), and Pokemon clones. The reason the clones are priced at 10PC is because people often buy these in bulk, meaning that the final transaction would likely appear much higher in price. However, if you strongly feel that this is an issue, I would suggest replacing the per-pokemon idea with a 60PC-for-4-clones idea, or something of similar nature. I personally feel that 30-35PC per clone is too high.

    As far as bred Pokemon goes, I'm talking about the discards from breeding. Please refer to @RedQueenIzanami 's thread about a breeding forum, and @Saraceaser 's comment here. The problem is that these Pokemon are, for the most part, only valuable to breeders, casual players, and those who do not gen. And for breeders (I am a breeder myself, though I do not sell on the site) 5IV discards are simply a byproduct and take essentially no "effort" to develop. To most (competitive players), unless they are 6IV and battle ready, they are not worth 60PC. This means that the only way us breeders can sell is from a nearly bare-minimum standpoint.

    To address your comment about price points, I am not trying to affect those sellers at all. I am only trying to increase the selling of items that are currently not being sold at all (no one would buy an item for 60PC, regardless of if it was offered, which is usually isn't).

    About item prices, I'm glad you agree :)

    About your final point, it is true that new members hardly read the rules, and staff have to go in and fix things. But as you mentioned, that's already happening. I get that it's easier to give them a single 60PC min that a list of tiers, but easy doesn't = better. Perhaps the breeding discards and dex fillers should be pooled into a single 20PC price point to make things a bit more simple, but I still believe the tiering is worth the extra effort (I know I'm not a mod, I'm not doing that work, but in my attempt to put myself in your shoes this is how I feel).
     
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  20. Matt_192

    Matt_192 Official Server Crasher Staff Member Admin Will Not Fall Journalist Friendzilla Donor Dex Contributor Iron Will

    Thanks for the quick reply :)

    I get the clones thing completely - my starting issue came down to them effectively still being BR Pokemon so should be worth 60PC, but I understand the issues. Clones are a bit of an interesting one to discuss, so maybe a 20PC-per-clone thing but we allow shops to give out discounts for bulk purchases? Obviously these would have to be monitored but it couldn't hurt as long as people read the rules thoroughly.

    Discards from breeding fair enough. If we're referring to 6IV either as a 31/31/31/31/31/31 Pokemon, a 31/x/31/y/31/z Pokemon (where x or y = 0 and/or z = 0) or a specific hidden power then I'd agree, but generally if people want say, a special attacker, they won't be too annoyed about not having a 0 attack stat even if it means that they take slightly more from Foul Play. Due to this, my issue is, again, controlling this.

    I get your points here. IMO the best balance we can possibly have for doing this is a tiering distinction: some things can be sold for 20PC, the rest is 60PC. 20PC would include clones, items, (possibly 5IV Level 1s, again, it'll take moderation), etc as long as we can check it over first, and 60PC would be for the rest (basically BR KB/HB Pokemon). I get that this will take a bit more moderation than we're used to, but if we were going to do this distinction, an A or B (20 vs 60) approach would be much better than scattering prices between 10PC and 60PC imo.

    Thanks for your input :)

    @doulie - you may wanna take a look over this thread. My full response is on the second page (posts #38 - #40 ).
     
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