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Closed Stop arguing, you nimrods. This thread is through.

Should we raise minimum pricing on custom pokemon?


  • Total voters
    44

Dom

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Honestly, I haven't been able to make a single penny on this site yet :( nobody seems to want to buy from my shop because I can't afford to spend hours carefully breeding custom pokemon by hand for 20PC and therefore have to raise my prices a little. Honestly the economic vibe I get around here is somewhat reminiscent of a sweatshop. People working hours upon hours for pennies.

If you have 0 sales at 20 a piece and you raise the minimum price but still have 0 sales you still have 0$.

Some people think raising the minimum transaction limit will help them get sales, this isn't a miracle rule, I don't see the correlation between your sales and the minimum transaction rule. Of course if you had sales at the minimum price you'd be making more but then again you can also sell for more to begin with. You're also being hypocritical by running a new shop selling at 20 PC, if you want to make more raise your prices and add to the change, By selling for the price you disagree with you're hurting yourself and your cause. It's like if I were advocating for higher prices then undercutting everyone else for sales.

But we've already tried making them realize 20PC sales are a bad idea. The problem is, their neighbor is ready to chuck out 20PC pokemon, and newbies are coming in with these prices too. They feel they need to bring prices down so they can compete, which makes the entire situation even worse.
And buyers are already used to providing a minimal 20PC for their pokemon. It's bad. A forced sale price would be much better than spreading information at this point, since it's already been too rooted into the people of this site.

The only reason we budged and implemented a rule for the economy at all like this was out of necessity and had more of these people speaking up been there they would see the relative lack of necessity for a raise. I know it's bad for some people but some of these users are new and still have to establish a reputation, we've all been there, there's no shortcut.

That being said some established sellers are also losing sales but raising the price across the board would skew things such as dex fillers and other cheap products, what would they sell for? I understand you're referring to custom pokemon only as you said which is just too specific to a certain group to be implemented. It would be across the board, why would it make sense to only benefit users selling custom pokemon?

There are a lot more sellers than buyers, everyone wants something and the reason the poll may not be the best representation is because sellers are often here for the long haul while a portion of the buyers come and go for one time purchases, I think it's hard to gauge the entire site in a small thread like this,

I might be alone on this one, but I think the minimum on Pokemon should be a lot higher. Somewhere in the 100 range. It's attainable, but you need to stay for a bit to make up that kind of money. Unfortunatley, it can go either way. It might drive people away from the site, or it encourages people to stay to save up the PC, giving them a chance to see what a nice place this site is. It's enough to still make money though. Thoughts?

What pokemon? All Pokemon? Battlereadies? Dex Fillers? There are a lot more specifics that go into things and it isn't as easy as saying go ahead raise the minimum price to 70 PC, there are details, exploits, things that have to be thought about and I don't think this is a complete proposal. If you feel this strongly about the idea then it could use some more work as mentioned above by @sebesmos .

I completely agreee with this. Way too many people buy for 20PC.

EDIT: Oh yeah, look at the price of this example post doulie made, and compare it to 20PC
http://perfectpokemon.com/threads/5iv-fletchling-adamant-gale-wings-450-pc.8/

Please throw this out the window, this post is irrelevant, I've been here for over a year and I have sold event legendaries for 1000+ PC when I first joined. That was a different time, things change, Of course the prices plummeted with the implementation of powersaves, genning, and bank around every corner. This isn't a valid reference post.

People don't realize just how long it takes someone to breed by hand, especially if you're having to juggle ability, egg moves, gender, (most of all)perfect IVs, ect all at the same time. I'm on about eight hours of work on trying to breed a 6IV female hidden ability egg move dratini. I havve a 5IV dratini and a 6IV ditto w/ dknot. and even then if/when I can hatch one I still need to Ev train, and level it up.

Raising prices won't revive breeding. Breeding is being done in by genning and cheating. Raising the prices won't make people choose long tedious waits as opposed to instant products. Also you don't breed anymore, you invested in a genning device iirc.

As you can see by the newest PC rule we have implemented, we are heading in the right direction, this rule was implemented due to being suggested several times and brought up to doulie by myself personally. I'm not going against you or arguing with you and i'm not choosing to take a stance on this issue currently, I'm just pointing out that there are always more complications than you'd think it isn't simple and a more detailed pitch would be appreciated.
 
K

Krelbit

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Some people think raising the minimum transaction limit will help them get sales, this isn't a miracle rule, I don't see the correlation between your sales and the minimum transaction rule.

I agree with this completely, but sales have been very slow because of the minimum transaction rule being so small. Having such little PC move around the site (compared to when there weren't 20PC genners out there) stagnates the economy significantly and turns some of the buyers into rabid hustlers.

That being said some established sellers are also losing sales but raising the price across the board would skew things such as dex fillers and other cheap products, what would they sell for? I understand you're referring to custom pokemon only as you said which is just too specific to a certain group to be implemented. It would be across the board, why would it make sense to only benefit users selling custom pokemon?

The main offenders that are the most detrimental to the site, I would say, are the ones selling custom pokemon. Sales at a non custom level (items, dex fillers, poorly drawn bulbasaurs) already had a fairly low selling base. The fact is, the main bulk of pc on this site is dedicated to the sale of perfect pokemon (check site name for details). As such, I feel it should be more targeted on our rules. While it does show a bias, I already stated I am going to be showing a bias, as to help the community understand what many established sellers are going through at the moment.

As you can see by the newest PC rule we have implemented, we are heading in the right direction, this rule was implemented due to being suggested several times and brought up to doulie by myself personally. I'm not going against you or arguing with you and i'm not choosing to take a stance on this issue currently, I'm just pointing out that there are always more complications than you'd think it isn't simple and a more detailed pitch would be appreciated.

I appreciate the input, and I agree that there are complications and that there will be a lot more if this rule is extended. With that said though, I still feel a small bump should be pushed onto the site to even out the oncoming horde of rotten-egg crowd buyers. Thanks for spittin' hot fire facts, Dom.

Dom pls.
 

Dom

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I agree with this completely, but sales have been very slow because of the minimum transaction rule being so small. Having such little PC move around the site (compared to when there weren't 20PC genners out there) stagnates the economy significantly and turns some of the buyers into rabid hustlers.



The main offenders that are the most detrimental to the site, I would say, are the ones selling custom pokemon. Sales at a non custom level (items, dex fillers, poorly drawn bulbasaurs) already had a fairly low selling base. The fact is, the main bulk of pc on this site is dedicated to the sale of perfect pokemon (check site name for details). As such, I feel it should be more targeted on our rules. While it does show a bias, I already stated I am going to be showing a bias, as to help the community understand what many established sellers are going through at the moment.



I appreciate the input, and I agree that there are complications and that there will be a lot more if this rule is extended. With that said though, I still feel a small bump should be pushed onto the site to even out the oncoming horde of rotten-egg crowd buyers. Thanks for spittin' hot fire facts, Dom.

Dom pls.

You're allowed to show a bias when suggesting something but I don't think it's alright to show a bias when implementing a rule that affects everyone on a website of thousands of users.

Once again, come back with some numbers worked out it would definitely benefit your argument greatly.
 

sebesmos

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You're allowed to show a bias when suggesting something but I don't think it's alright to show a bias when implementing a rule that affects everyone on a website of thousands of users.

Once again, come back with some numbers worked out it would definitely benefit your argument greatly.
This is the main issue when we choose whether or not to raise the prices - is it being done for the benefit of all, or for the benefit of a few? It's obvious that most of our more active and long-term users are interested in a higher minimum price and proactive about changing the min price - but is this in the best interest of the site? Yes and no.

Yes - because raising the minimum transaction price will ensure that the site keeps the income we want it to have, if not raising the sites income to make up for this increase in prices!

No - because users who do NOT buy credits via PayPal will have more incentive to spam even MORE for credits.

Overall, my general consensus is that with current suggestions, raising the price is not in the best interest of the site. If we raise the price high enough that users would be "discouraged" to spend the time spamming for the PC, it would likely be too high of a raise to keep or attract users who don't want to spend as much on Pokemon.

Although most of the long-term community here are competitive battlers, many people who visit this site stop in for one or two Pokemon and sometimes they don't even want competitives. When I first joined, I was only here to get a shiny Tyrantrum - and nothing else. Sometimes it's more important to encourage users to stay and spend more money over time than it is to have them spend bursts of money in greater quantities.

Either way, current proposals are a no from me.
 
K

Krelbit

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You're allowed to show a bias when suggesting something but I don't think it's alright to show a bias when implementing a rule that affects everyone on a website of thousands of users.

Once again, come back with some numbers worked out it would definitely benefit your argument greatly.

As we discussed shortly in the shoutbox, a generalized minimum selling price is easier to implement, but having different selling prices would pay off in the long run, and after a short run with these prices, it would be just about the same to maintain. If you think about it, I'm suggesting a bit of a mini-scale forced IATS.
That way, we could have numbers around
20PC - Miscellaneous services, Items
30PC - Powersave services, dex filler pokemon
40PC - Perfect Pokemon
50PC - Custom Pokemon

While it does affect everyone, I feel it would grow into a more positive economic situation for the sellers.

It's already an issue that sellers know about the deflation of PC here, but another issue lies within the fact that their competitors are undercutting them so harshly they can't establish a reputation or make sales, turning them into undercutters just so they can have a chance. Raising the price could possibly spur changes that actually keep a seller in place, instead of leaving right away and instilling a bad taste in the mouth of PerfectPokemon. The new sellers feel like they don't have a chance.

A trial period would be nice, would you be open to that any time in the future?

Dom pls.
 

Dom

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As we discussed shortly in the shoutbox, a generalized minimum selling price is easier to implement, but having different selling prices would pay off in the long run, and after a short run with these prices, it would be just about the same to maintain. If you think about it, I'm suggesting a bit of a mini-scale forced IATS.
That way, we could have numbers around
20PC - Miscellaneous services, Items
30PC - Powersave services, dex filler pokemon
40PC - Perfect Pokemon
50PC - Custom Pokemon

While it does affect everyone, I feel it would grow into a more positive economic situation for the sellers.

It's already an issue that sellers know about the deflation of PC here, but another issue lies within the fact that their competitors are undercutting them so harshly they can't establish a reputation or make sales, turning them into undercutters just so they can have a chance. Raising the price could possibly spur changes that actually keep a seller in place, instead of leaving right away and instilling a bad taste in the mouth of PerfectPokemon. The new sellers feel like they don't have a chance.

A trial period would be nice, would you be open to that any time in the future?

Dom pls.

I don't see the relation to IATS. PC will always deflate and inflate, it's a currency with no ground. People will get fed up with all the dirt 50 PC sellers, where does it stop? This could easily be a vicious cycle. Raising prices won't prevent undercutting, it will just raise the prices at which undercutters come in.

Are you looking to help out the sellers alone and not the community as a whole?

I'm open to anything if the argument is good enough but of course I don't have the last say on anything, if you convince me i'll try to relay the message and get results but i'm not being convinced with the way things are standing currently .

A general flat rate is not effective if it were to be raised because some things are worth less than others, A spread rate like the one you've proposed would be very hard to relay to new members seeing as though so many have an issue with just following the one we have in place right now. There are always grey areas, it's immensely difficult to satisfy all possible products with a set of prices and the more you add the more confusing it gets. People aren't all as intelligent as you might think, we need to keep the rules clear and concise.
 

Marc

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That way, we could have numbers around
20PC - Miscellaneous services, Items
30PC - Powersave services, dex filler pokemon
40PC - Perfect Pokemon
50PC - Custom Pokemon
As a relatively new member to the site and a buyer I think that having a split rate like this (maybe not these exact numbers but very similar) could be a good thing overall.
Looking at the FAQ page on PC, just by registering and updating their profile (apparently as the registration credits never applied to my account so not sure if they are still given) nets a new user 35 PC. That is enough to snag a powersave or item/misc service, tie in with 5 posts and on the above rate the minimum price for a perfect pokemon.
Just with that, the user is required to stay a little, maybe post an intro, reply to a thread for the seller and a couple of minor posts, it increases the potential PC for sellers and gives the new user a chance to get a feel for the site and community before leaving and might even help to retain them.

Yes there will always be undercutters, yes they will always aim to work at the minimum price, but I prefer to go for trusted sellers to know that I will get what I request and would generally pay a little more for that

*EDIT* also regarding the newer members posting the wrong rates, this feels like a vbulletin forum so there are plenty of plugins that you can install that on selected forums put a warning that they have to click stating they understand the minimum rates which you can list and customise the warning for each board
 
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Dom

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As a relatively new member to the site and a buyer I think that having a split rate like this (maybe not these exact numbers but very similar) could be a good thing overall.
Looking at the FAQ page on PC, just by registering and updating their profile (apparently as the registration credits never applied to my account so not sure if they are still given) nets a new user 35 PC. That is enough to snag a powersave or item/misc service, tie in with 5 posts and on the above rate the minimum price for a perfect pokemon.
Just with that, the user is required to stay a little, maybe post an intro, reply to a thread for the seller and a couple of minor posts, it increases the potential PC for sellers and gives the new user a chance to get a feel for the site and community before leaving and might even help to retain them.

Yes there will always be undercutters, yes they will always aim to work at the minimum price, but I prefer to go for trusted sellers to know that I will get what I request and would generally pay a little more for that

*EDIT* also regarding the newer members posting the wrong rates, this feels like a vbulletin forum so there are plenty of plugins that you can install that on selected forums put a warning that they have to click stating they understand the minimum rates which you can list and customise the warning for each board

The free signup PC was discontinued due to abuse, plenty of users were making alts trying to cheat the system which is very bad.
In a perfect world you'd think this would allow users to make a few posts, write an intro, stay a while but you could argue having a low minimum price like 20 PC would do the same thing. It doesn't however, for some users this might be the case but for a lot of users they think they can spam X number of times to get X PC for whatever they need, it's an ongoing problem.

If you're willing to pay more from trusted sellers I'm not sure how that ties in to the minimum transaction limit because most trusted sellers don't sell for that little anyway, you can still pay more regardless of the minimum.

This is a XenForo forum, i'm not sure what's available on the plugin side.
 
K

Krelbit

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It's been a while, and some of the material on here could be modified for a stage of trial in the future. What's your stance on this, @doulie?
 

Nonny

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I voted "No" for this one. But I changed my mind. Here's why I originally voted "no".

I have yet to sell anything, even for the minimum 20-PC price. Everything I ever sell or trade (which, so far, has not been very much) is hand-bred, and building up the resources to get to a point where I can semi-consistently breed a limited variety of good pokes has taken literal hundreds of hours.

Maybe my opinion will change, but for now, I don't think raising the PC limit will be terribly helpful. I can (in theory) pay 20 PC for a genned shiny 6IV poke of my choice, or I can pay whatever the custom poke minimum price becomes for something that, while it took more effort to make, is not as high in quality. If the power saver knows what she's doing, the result is indistinguishable from a very lucky breeding project.

Pretty much, I as the customer would be paying more PC for something that (from my point of view, not the point of view of the seller) is simply not as good.

I don't think that raising the minimum PC cutoff for custom pokes is going to encourage more sales of custom pokes. If anything, it would probably decrease the demand for those more than the increased price will make up for.

Of course, this is my relatively uninformed opinion here. My feelings won't be hurt if anyone disagrees with me. Just throwing in my two credits.

EDIT: I changed my vote to "yes". Here's why.

I think 20 PC is just a really small asking price in general. It's fine for powersaves and items, since they're by comparison really easy to get, but really? 20 cents? At that kind of price, why bother with all the time and effort when I could (in theory) gen something more likely to sell in minutes?
 
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sebesmos

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I voted "No" for this one. But I changed my mind. Here's why I originally voted "no".

I have yet to sell anything, even for the minimum 20-PC price. Everything I ever sell or trade (which, so far, has not been very much) is hand-bred, and building up the resources to get to a point where I can semi-consistently breed a limited variety of good pokes has taken literal hundreds of hours.

Maybe my opinion will change, but for now, I don't think raising the PC limit will be terribly helpful. I can (in theory) pay 20 PC for a genned shiny 6IV poke of my choice, or I can pay whatever the custom poke minimum price becomes for something that, while it took more effort to make, is not as high in quality. If the power saver knows what she's doing, the result is indistinguishable from a very lucky breeding project.

Pretty much, I as the customer would be paying more PC for something that (from my point of view, not the point of view of the seller) is simply not as good.

I don't think that raising the minimum PC cutoff for custom pokes is going to encourage more sales of custom pokes. If anything, it would probably decrease the demand for those more than the increased price will make up for.

Of course, this is my relatively uninformed opinion here. My feelings won't be hurt if anyone disagrees with me. Just throwing in my two credits.

EDIT: I changed my vote to "yes". Here's why.

I think 20 PC is just a really small asking price in general. It's fine for powersaves and items, since they're by comparison really easy to get, but really? 20 cents? At that kind of price, why bother with all the time and effort when I could (in theory) gen something more likely to sell in minutes?
Thank you for your input. I don't think anyone here would say that you did a bad job arguing your side. :)

I have mixed feelings about a minimum price change.

Yes - Because (using the BUY rate) $0.20 is a dirt fee, and having users come to the site and spam to 20 PC is a problem that not only clutters the site, but doesn't actually benefit the site. I think $1 is a very reasonable amount of money to consider a "minimum" fee.

No - Because now that we are in a lull for new members and activity, raising the prices could actually drive people away from the site. I used to be of the argument that a user who would truly be a good long term fit for our community is one who would contribute to it's growth economically as well as socially, and for the most part I still am - but sometimes the users who annoy us the most when the join can be users who turn into understand community members. Being a moderator here for over a year now, I can say that some of you lil' pricks [ :Cool: ] I didn't like when you joined because of your low prices, inability to read the rules, or some other function that would make a staff member instantly irritated with you - but to those of you that stayed and are still here, you've become active, contributing members to this site. I'd hate to give anyone a reason to not stay. The longer people stay on the site (waiting to buy dirt cheap Pokemon perhaps), the more chance they have to see how great this community is.
 

Nonny

Pokémon Champion
Journalist
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Thank you for your input. I don't think anyone here would say that you did a bad job arguing your side. :)

I have mixed feelings about a minimum price change.

Yes - Because (using the BUY rate) $0.20 is a dirt fee, and having users come to the site and spam to 20 PC is a problem that not only clutters the site, but doesn't actually benefit the site. I think $1 is a very reasonable amount of money to consider a "minimum" fee.

No - Because now that we are in a lull for new members and activity, raising the prices could actually drive people away from the site. I used to be of the argument that a user who would truly be a good long term fit for our community is one who would contribute to it's growth economically as well as socially, and for the most part I still am - but sometimes the users who annoy us the most when the join can be users who turn into understand community members. Being a moderator here for over a year now, I can say that some of you lil' pricks [ :Cool: ] I didn't like when you joined because of your low prices, inability to read the rules, or some other function that would make a staff member instantly irritated with you - but to those of you that stayed and are still here, you've become active, contributing members to this site. I'd hate to give anyone a reason to not stay. The longer people stay on the site (waiting to buy dirt cheap Pokemon perhaps), the more chance they have to see how great this community is.
Thanks for the positive feedback! :D

I'm kind of in a similar boat. I think, if we DO raise the PC limit, it shouldn't be for the sake of helping the site. I don't think it'll be that helpful. But I'm all for raising it for other reasons.
 
K

Krelbit

Guest
Thanks for the positive feedback! :D

I'm kind of in a similar boat. I think, if we DO raise the PC limit, it shouldn't be for the sake of helping the site. I don't think it'll be that helpful. But I'm all for raising it for other reasons.

Plus, spending money will keep people on the site for longer. While it's not proven, it really makes sense. If you invest some of your money into something, you use it for longer than if something was free. IE, games. Keeping people on the site for longer may give us the little community push we need, because face it, the community aspect of this site is dying.
 

Nonny

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I guess the ultimate question is: Is this site a business first and a community second, or the other way around?
 
K

Krelbit

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I guess the ultimate question is: Is this site a business first and a community second, or the other way around?

This site was originally made as a business, and then a community developed. Now, we try to an equal match of the two, but now the business side is slowly creeping over the dead body of the community side.
 

Nonny

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This site was originally made as a business, and then a community developed. Now, we try to an equal match of the two, but now the business side is slowly creeping over the dead body of the community side.
Okay. I ought to rephrase then:

SHOULD this site be a business first and a community second, or the other way around? Or should it be as balanced as possible?
 
K

Krelbit

Guest
Okay. I ought to rephrase then:

SHOULD this site be a business first and a community second, or the other way around? Or should it be as balanced as possible?

This site should be a balance.
 

sebesmos

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Okay. I ought to rephrase then:

SHOULD this site be a business first and a community second, or the other way around? Or should it be as balanced as possible?
That is a question best answered by our community lord and savior, @doulie
 

sebesmos

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You can answer it from your experience as a user too. Go on, try it. It's not that hard.

But yeah, I'd like to hear from @doulie as well.
Well, I'm not the one running the site and paying the fees to keep it hosted and cashing out everyones payments. Ultimately it doesn't matter what I think - but I already said what I thought above!
 
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