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The PP League Needs Some Adjustments!

Jiggly

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Hey everyone! Jiggly here, and it has come to the attention of the site that some of the rules of the PP league are kind of... not efficient.

The Perfect Pokemon League is supposed to be a series of challenges to face some of the most epic mono-type leaders the site has to offer. The challenge can be really hard, due to the Uber the leader also wields. Although, with every gym, comes many counter teams. This has proven to be an issue.

Counter teams
are often hard to beat, due to the limited options the leader has to build a team, and often times one small thing can ruin a gym. I as an Ice leader have had this issue, as bullet punch and rocks are both super effective against my team, and I don't have all too much to do against them, especially if the whole team has such an arsenal. The reason we first wanted to give leaders an Uber was to make sure that counter teams weren't too much of an issue.

It has come to the site's attention, that current measures taken to beat counter teaming are NOT effective to fixing the problems of counter teaming. Not only is Uber clause lenient for leaders, now leaders can wield an illegal item, and break one clause. The thing is though, this makes gyms even more unbalanced. Now steel gym can have Genesect/Dialga, Mega Lucario, and swagster Klefki where rock gym doesn't have anything besides breaking a clause. What can the rock gym do now, 6 Tyranitars?

If we want to fix the problem of counter teams, we need to take a step in a different direction. Such as restricting challengers to a certain amount of super effective pokemon, or making it so their non-
super effective pokemon can't wield supper effective attacks, or something like that. We need a system that can work on a universal basis, and not give a couple gyms a push.

We need to disable some rules of the past, as well as try to fix some things. Make some gym specific clauses for challengers, as well as maybe let all gyms use their type Arceus, or at least rock. The league right now is struggling to find the right footing, and I would hate to see it become a joke like some people are talking about it.

Leave your thoughts below, or suggestions on ways to fix the PPleague. None of the things I suggested are things that necessarily need to happen, just thoughts on ways to fix the site, or a nudge in the right direction. @doulie we really need to help improve the challenge! Not imbalance the scale of difficulty


#savetheppleague


 
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Dom

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Evasion clause is missing from the post, that's an issue, not sure if it's a typo or just removed...

My gym can't benefit from that banned item clause which stinks, like jiggly mentioned, some gyms like normal, steel, and flying are insanely powerful with 2 ubers and swagster/minimize/etc

I don't see those gyms ever being taken due to the incumbent advantage as well, I think some more balance would be cool in some way, @doulie this might be worth thinking about, I've seen lots of complaints and as mentioned above, it's becoming a joke more than a challenge
 

ericashes

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I dislike the use of a ban pokemon AND ban item. I do like being able to use kyogre that is good....however what ban item do I use? Blue orb? That should not count as a ban item when other gym leaders can use an uber and then use a ban megastone and have 2 ubers. Right now I just use 2x life orbs because thats the best I can do :p.

I dont think using a ban item fixes anything tbh....Just make a rule saying that an opponent can only carry 2 super effectives. Easy enough to win still. I mean ....they can still put a super effective move on all their other pokes, just limit it to 2x stab super effectives.
 

AndromedaNexus

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Breaking a clause is taking it a little too far, to be completly, only a few gyms can truly take advantage of this, like my gym has mega gengar, giratina, and minimize chadelure. But rock gym can only break a clause? It's a little too much and it forces people to counter team. You cant bring a standard team and expect to win with these rules in place. @doulie we have to have a serious discussion about this before we stop being a challenge and transform into something that won't be taken seriously
 

Jiggly

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I dislike the use of a ban pokemon AND ban item. I do like being able to use kyogre that is good....however what ban item do I use? Blue orb? That should not count as a ban item when other gym leaders can use an uber and then use a ban megastone and have 2 ubers. Right now I just use 2x life orbs because thats the best I can do :p.

I dont think using a ban item fixes anything tbh....Just make a rule saying that an opponent can only carry 2 super effectives. Easy enough to win still. I mean ....they can still put a super effective move on all their other pokes, just limit it to 2x stab super effectives.
technically a megastone of an uber isnt a banned item, as it isnt crazy in lower tiers. You could still use a banned item, but water doesn't have any...
 

phenix

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I definitely feel that evasion clause needs to be on there, as well as a lot of the standard clauses. Swagster and baton passing chains for sure.

And say what you like, but the flying gym is far from broken lol.
But yes, we need to address challengers, not just make some gyms crazy OP and others are left to rot with a lack of options.

Using a ban item and breaking clauses is not okay and it dissuades people from challenging and even when they do, they will counter.
 

Sewage

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I completely agree in that many of the rules put in place to mitigate the ease of counter-teaming a gym are counter-effective in itself. Regardless of how many uber/ uber items allowed, if someone wants to counter-team a gym, they will. If there is no penalty for obvious counter-teaming, making the gyms even more unbalanced will encourage it even more.
 
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ericashes

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I definitely feel that evasion clause needs to be on there, as well as a lot of the standard clauses. Swagster and baton passing chains for sure.

And say what you like, but the flying gym is far from broken lol.
But yes, we need to address challengers, not just make some gyms crazy OP and others are left to rot with a lack of options.

Using a ban item and breaking clauses is not okay and it dissuades people from challenging and even when they do, they will counter.

broken gyms will just make them wanna counter more.
 

sebesmos

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The illegal item clause just feels like a second uber and that's how I've seen it being used - is to use an uber mega.

I understand how frustrating it is to be a gym leader and counter teamed but the more powerful we make the gyms the less I feel like challenging them legitimately. the gym challenge should be fun for everyone. We shouldn't force people with less skill into their only hopes of winning any badge being a counter team by buffing up gyms.

I strongly agree we should instead restrict the amount of super effective types used against a gym team.
 

paulwylie08

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I'm very relatively new to this site, but i can see the amount of time and effort and pride the leaders put in to maintaining the high standard of this site. But yes as stated above some gyms are gaining from the swagster clause, and so on, I also agree that leaders having to face counter teams, match after match is not going to be fun. Maybe limit the number of Resist/Super Effected mons a challenger can use? I think 3 is a reasonable number. I also think that the rules should vary from gym to gym, some need a beef up, rather than make thestrong gyms stronger and the weak gyms stay the same because they cannot benefit. I think it would make it much more enjoyable for both parties, and less of a need to counter team. Again I'm only new here and my opinions may not count for anything, but it does seem unbalanced a lot, even to me.
 

Cheza

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My gym was fine without an uber item and I haven't been using a clause. What I would really like to see is a rule against counter teams and I'd be happy to enforce one!

I count 3 or more Pokémon that are good against the type you're facing a counter team and have included some "special" Pokémon on my counter team list for the psychic gym. Some Pokémon like mega gallade and u-turn talonflame (usually choice ban) because of how many times I've seen them against my team and what they do.

If there was a counter team clause for the gyms we could remove all this clause breaking and ubers rules for gyms and no longer focus on "preparing for the next counter team".

As a gym leader it's very annoying to face a counter team although they aren't that difficult to handle in my case. They take the fun out of being a gym leader sometimes.

I'd like to be able to get together with all the gym leaders and create some " counter team lists" consisting of Pokémon their gym has issues with and they see often.

Even with a counter clause rule in place I think the ubers rules could stay for a while just to see if they're still needed, than decide after some feedback from gym leaders if it should be removed. (The hesitation simpily because this was an original rule for gyms).

There are a lot of great psychic Pokémon I'd love to try out in my gym but simply can't because a team of counter Pokémon would trample them...

With all these new gym leader perks it's only encouraging counter teams, some gyms have to be countered in order to have a chance at winning.

@doulie thoughts? :)
 
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paulwylie08

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My gym was fine without an uber item and I haven't been using a clause. What I would really like to see is a rule against counter teams and I'd be happy to enforce one!

I count 3 or more Pokémon that are good against the type you're facing a counter team and have included some "special" Pokémon on my counter team list for the psychic gym. Some Pokémon like mega gallade and u-turn talonflame (usually choice ban) because of how many times I've seen them against my team and what they do.

If there was a counter team clause for the gyms we could remove all this clause breaking and ubers rules for gyms and no longer focus on "preparing for the next counter team".

As a gym leader it's very annoying to face a counter team although they aren't that difficult to handle in my case. They take the fun out of being a gym leader sometimes.

I'd like to be able to get together with all the gym leaders and create some " counter team lists" consisting of Pokémon their gym has issues with and they see often.

Even with a counter clause rule in place I think the ubers rules could stay for a while just to see if they're still needed, than decide after some feedback from gym leaders if it should be removed. (The hesitation simpily because this was an original rule for gyms).

There are a lot of great psychic Pokémon I'd love to try out in my gym but simply can't because a team of counter Pokémon would trample them...

With all these new gym leader perks it's only encouraging counter teams, some gyms have to be countered in order to have a chance at winning.

@doulie thoughts? :)

I think compiling a list of 'uber' counters is necessary for each gym, 3 counters was simply my idea of a good number, but maybe with a list compiled, you could use one from the list and 1 or 2 non OP counters? Just a thought.
 

Sewage

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I think the notion of each gym having their own limited ban list could work, however I think the number of Pokemon a gym leader can put on this list should be based off the number of weaknesses that particular type has. For example the ice gym and the electric gym being allowed the same number of pokemon to put on their gym ban list, would be a much bigger advantage for electric and would create further balance issues.
 

sebesmos

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I feel like a limit to how many supereffectives is more ideal because it makes it more reasonable for each side to have whatever pokes they want. If someone has one of the "uber counters" on their normal OU team and we were to ban it for a gym, they then have to change their team, and I believe the reason we haven't been limiting the challengers teams is because we want to allow them the freedom to use what they want.
 

Sewage

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I feel like a limit to how many supereffectives is more ideal because it makes it more reasonable for each side to have whatever pokes they want. If someone has one of the "uber counters" on their normal OU team and we were to ban it for a gym, they then have to change their team, and I believe the reason we haven't been limiting the challengers teams is because we want to allow them the freedom to use what they want.
The issue I thought of with this, is some types with more weaknesses could easily force someone to change their regular lineup as well to avoid counter teaming. I'm sure I've used plenty of teams with 3 pokemon super effective against ice, rock or grass without even trying too.
 

Matt_192

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just gonna post some quick thoughts
  • I actually just stick to the old rules - I just use an uber/uber item. What annoys me is even with this in place, people have more of a need to counter team and there's just a limit
  • I actually don't believe super effective mons in general are the issue, it's just a select few mons that no team can prepare for. For example, I have the fighting gym - if people bring mPinsir, Talonflame and then back them up (just slightly) they can easily sweep
I've seen a huge rise in counter teamers over the last few weeks and, tbh, I put it all down to this new rule.
 

cj-97

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From a challenger POV, it was (and still is) daunting to have to think about the Uber pokemon of a gym, but i think that certain gyms need a lot more of a helping hand than others, for example, let struggling types use their areceus, maybe even ban entry hazards for certain types that it cripples, but letting a gym leader break a clause is going too far in my opinion
 
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Cheza

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There would definitely need to be a counter list limit, especially for gyms with 6 plus weaknesses.

What I'd like to see is something like in the original games where challengers would have at least one Pokémon good against the type because the game provides it and some other Pokémon having super effective moves against the type...

Example going against the ghost gym in heart gold / soul silver you can catch gastly and the tm shadow claw is provided for you.

I feel a lot of people (or at least challengers) wish the gym challenge was more like the game, this is why an elite four has been suggested many times.

One or two Pokémon good against the type you're facing (a max of two Pokémon on the counter list for that gym) would be allowed.

The rest of the team world be other Pokémon, most likely from a team the challenger uses a lot in regular battles.

A max of two counters would allow gyms more flexibly to run different Pokémon and have normal OU battles with their challengers.

Counter lists would be discussed between all gym leaders in a conversation to determine a fair list.
 

ericashes

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There would definitely need to be a counter list limit, especially for gyms with 6 plus weaknesses.

What I'd like to see is something like in the original games where challengers would have at least one Pokémon good against the type because the game provides it and some other Pokémon having super effective moves against the type...

Example going against the ghost gym in heart gold / soul silver you can catch gastly and the tm shadow claw is provided for you.

I feel a lot of people (or at least challengers) wish the gym challenge was more like the game, this is why an elite four has been suggested many times.

One or two Pokémon good against the type you're facing (a max of two Pokémon on the counter list for that gym) would be allowed.

The rest of the team world be other Pokémon, most likely from a team the challenger uses a lot in regular battles.

A max of two counters would allow gyms more flexibly to run different Pokémon and have normal OU battles with their challengers.

Counter lists would be discussed between all gym leaders in a conversation to determine a fair list.

exactly. you can bring 2x weaknesses and still have all 6 of your pokemon with a super effgective move. Thats already too much so I think thats fair.
 

Matt_192

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There would definitely need to be a counter list limit, especially for gyms with 6 plus weaknesses.

What I'd like to see is something like in the original games where challengers would have at least one Pokémon good against the type because the game provides it and some other Pokémon having super effective moves against the type...

Example going against the ghost gym in heart gold / soul silver you can catch gastly and the tm shadow claw is provided for you.

I feel a lot of people (or at least challengers) wish the gym challenge was more like the game, this is why an elite four has been suggested many times.

One or two Pokémon good against the type you're facing (a max of two Pokémon on the counter list for that gym) would be allowed.

The rest of the team world be other Pokémon, most likely from a team the challenger uses a lot in regular battles.

A max of two counters would allow gyms more flexibly to run different Pokémon and have normal OU battles with their challengers.

Counter lists would be discussed between all gym leaders in a conversation to determine a fair list.
Completely agree with you, although I do bring up one point for discussion - what about the new rules? Are we to abolish them? At least, if this idea went forward.
 
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