Active Rock Gym Equality

[Dace]

Hello, I wanted to make a suggestion regarding the Rock Gym. Every single other type has an uber, except for the rock type ofcourse, and seeing as Gym Leaders are required to build mono teams, I find it extremely hard to make a mono team for rock, that could withstand counter teaming without an uber in the listing. ¨

Normal = Mega Kangaskhan / Arceus
Fire = Ho-Oh, Reshiram, Blaziken (Speed Boost)
Water = Kyogre, Palkia
Grass = Shaymin-Sky
Ground = Groudon
Fairy = Xerneas
Steel = Mega Lucario, Genesect, Dialga
Dark = Yveltal, Darkrai
Ghost = Mega Gengar
Poison = Mega Gengar
Psychic = Mewtwo, Lugia, Deoxys /Soul Dew Latias/Latios
Dragon = Too many to count. Rayquaza for example.
Bug = Genesect
Fighting = Mega Lucario, Speed Boost Blaziken
Flying = Lugia, Mega Salamence, Ho-Oh and so on.
Ice = Kyurem White
Electric = Zekrom

And then there's rock. None, zero, nada.

What I'm asking is, if it would be possible for Rock Gym to share Arceus with Normal gym (with Rock typing ofcourse, and if he/she even uses it), because at the moment this feels like a huge disadvantage.

Cheers, Dace.

 

[GiaQuando]

Well what most of u don't know is that even when the Rock has no Ubers there used to be one of the hard Gyms...

 

[Dace]

We can't all be like Dom.

EDIT: And even so, if other gyms are allowed to use ubers, I think it would be fair for the Rock one to have one aswell, since it is the only one left out.

 

[GiaQuando]

Maybe but some know why he was so scary

 

[Nenkendo]

no equality. if u put your name up for the gym you have to know what your getting into.

 

[BlazingInfernape]

Yes I second @Dace with this one. The rock gym needs an Uber. We may need to remove this when we get Sun and Moon so it can only be temporary.

 

[Dace]

no equality. if u put your name up for the gym you have to know what your getting into.

I'm fine with making a team without, I'm saying that it would be fair towards the gym when 17 Gyms have it and one doesnt. That being said, if the suggestion is denied, alright, I'll make a team without. If it is accepted, sweet, I can perhaps make a team with it.

 

[Martin]

Actually this is something I've been wondering about for around a year despite having no interest in the gym challenge. What exactly is the purpose of disallowing the use if Arceus formes in type gyms when you are restricted to Arceus-Normal in the Normal-type gym? The ruleset completly contradicts itself on this, and I think that it is the most pointless restriction on gym leaders. I think that all gym leaders should be allowed to use their respective Arceus forme and automatically lose if they make it hold a different type's plate/no plate (the latter applies for all gyms barring normal due to it not holding a plate in the first place). I disagree with rock getting exclusivity in the matter because that then raises questions as to why it would get special treatment just because of lacking an über 'mon, but I see no reason to restrict it to the normal gym when it can technically be any type in the game.

For the record I don't think the same principle applies to Primal Groudon in the fire gym (something I've discussed over Skype before) due to the fact that, for all intents and purposes, Primal Groudon is just a regular Groudon which mega evolves on switch-in, and it is shown as a base Groudon the first time it comes onto the field (meaning that it should only be usable in the ground gym).

 

[Nenkendo]

ok fine all gyms should be allowed the ninja frog because of protein it can be all types as well.
When you sign up for a gym you need to know what advantages you have and what disadvantages you have. IMO i belive if you want to sign up for a gym with no ubers. you should not be able to have an uber. For i know i dont want to face a gym with a unligit typed pokemon.

You signed up for the rock gym you have to uses the reasourses you have to make it an undefetable beast.

 

[Dace]

And you need to understand it was a mere suggestion, and I fully know my advantages and disadvantages. I'm perfectly fine with either way this thing goes. Also if you're suggesting Greninja and Arceus are the same, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Cheers.

 

[Martin]

ok fine all gyms should be allowed the ninja frog because of protein it can be all types as well.
When you sign up for a gym you need to know what advantages you have and what disadvantages you have. IMO i belive if you want to sign up for a gym with no ubers. you should not be able to have an uber. For i know i dont want to face a gym with a unligit typed pokemon.

You signed up for the rock gym you have to uses the reasourses you have to make it an undefetable beast.

I'm sorry, but in what universe is Protean in the same scope as Multitype? Multitype allows its user to permanently change its type provided that it holds the appropriate plate and the user will always (absolutely no exceptions due to the immunity to KOff, Trick, Switcheroo, Covet and Theif when a plate is held by Multitype Arceus), whereas Protean makes the user change type temporarily as a result of using moves, which means that Greninja is just a Water-/Dark-type with a neat gimmick, as changing type due to Protean is no different to changing forme mid-battle with Relic Song, mega evolving, primal devolving, or copying your opponent with Transform/Imposter; the attributes of the users are changing in all of these cases, and as such you can't consider them with regards to legality within gyms.

This directly contrasts with Arceus because, for all intents and purposes, Arceus-Rock is a pure Rock-type; its attributes never change mid-battle, and as such it is no different from a Regirock in regards to its mechanics. This is the basis of his argument for Arceus-Rock's legality in the Rock-type and my argument for all Arceus formes' legality in their respective gyms. While I disagree with the idea of exclusive access for the Rock-type gym, I genuinely can't see a reason why gyms aren't allowed to use their respective Arceus as their uber. It would also make life for certain gyms a lot easier due to them gaining access to stuff like Defog, which is hard to come by in certain gyms, and better utility both offensively and defensively to make the gyms more challenging - the latter of which is something which the gym challenge should always aim for due to it supposedly being meant to show your skill as a trainer (although whether this will truly be possible is debatable due to factors such as counter-teaming and the massive range of different skill levels when comparing leaders).

edit: mfw i accidentally called arceus-rock a mega instead of an uber

 

[Cheza]

This has been a topic recently between the staff members. Unfortunately, @doulie has and still is against the use of Arceus in another gym besides the normal gym, and doesn't seem like changing his opinion on the matter anytime soon. (Get put on the spot hehehe <3)

However, as you've said, the rock gym is currently the weakest gym on Perfect Pokemon. Having the most weakness and no uber Pokemon to help. Many of the staff members have thought that allowing the rock gym to use Arceus, because of its lack of an uber and large amount of weakness, would be a good idea. So for the time being, perhaps the rock gym could have a special exception when it comes to using Arceus as an uber? At least until an uber rock type Pokemon is released?

 

[Martin]

This has been a topic recently between the staff members. Unfortunately, @doulie has and still is against the use of Arceus in another gym besides the normal gym, and doesn't seem like changing his opinion on the matter anytime soon. (Get put on the spot hehehe <3)

However, as you've said, the rock gym is currently the weakest gym on Perfect Pokemon. Having the most weakness and no uber Pokemon to help. Many of the staff members have thought that allowing the rock gym to use Arceus, because of its lack of an uber and large amount of weakness, would be a good idea. So for the time being, perhaps the rock gym could have a special exception when it comes to using Arceus as an uber? At least until an uber rock type Pokemon is released?

There shouldn't even be a need for such an exception though. Arceus is not a Normal-type if it is holding a plate. If it appeared on the field and then changed forme akin to Promal Groudon I'd completely understand; however, it is a change which occurs within the party--making it no different from Shaymin-S (who is currently legal for use in the Flying-type gym) or any variation of Rotom-A (also legal in their respective gyms). In other words, the current ruleset completely contradicts itself. If @doulie intends on continuing to disallow the use of Arceus in other gyms, I think that he should first provide a non-flawed piece of justification which doesn't fall under the grounds of personal bias, because quite frankly I can not see a single reason as to why such a self-contradictory and arbitrary restriction is in place.

Part of the reason the tiering council was originally formed was to remove biases within the sites ruleset (most notable in Mega Lucario's legality prior to the initial tier list's creation), and part of my job as a member of the said council has always been to sift through the site's various rulesets to identify inconsistencies and self-contradictory rules. This currently falls under both of these criteria, and as such I am obligated to keep pushing for a change with regards to this until it is either put into effect or an irrefutable justification is provided as to why Arceus should be disallowed outside of the normal gym. As of yet, there has been no valid reason provided for why it should not be legal outside of the normal gym, and based on you're response the only reason which has been provided by @doulie is built entirely on a foundation of personal bias. As such, a change should be put into effect legalising the use of Arceus in gyms other than normal so as to maintain consistency within the ruleset.

 

[Cheza]

There shouldn't even be a need for such an exception though. Arceus is not a Normal-type if it is holding a plate. If it appeared on the field and then changed forme akin to Promal Groudon I'd completely understand; however, it is a change which occurs within the party--making it no different from Shaymin-S (who is currently legal for use in the Flying-type gym) or any variation of Rotom-A (also legal in their respective gyms). In other words, the current ruleset completely contradicts itself. If @doulie intends on continuing to disallow the use of Arceus in other gyms, I think that he should first provide a non-flawed piece of justification which doesn't fall under the grounds of personal bias, because quite frankly I can not see a single reason as to why such a self-contradictory and arbitrary restriction is in place.

Part of the reason the tiering council was originally formed was to remove biases within the sites ruleset (most notable in Mega Lucario's legality prior to the initial tier list's creation), and part of my job as a member of the said council has always been to sift through the site's various rulesets to identify inconsistencies and self-contradictory rules. This currently falls under both of these criteria, and as such I am obligated to keep pushing for a change with regards to this until it is either put into effect or an irrefutable justification is provided as to why Arceus should be disallowed outside of the normal gym. As of yet, there has been no valid reason provided for why it should not be legal outside of the normal gym, and based on you're response the only reason which has been provided by @doulie is built entirely on a foundation of personal bias. As such, a change should be put into effect legalising the use of Arceus in gyms other than normal so as to maintain consistency within the ruleset.

The conversation of Arceus being allowed actually began with us discussing the fire gym being allowing to use primal Groudon, because unlike a mega evolution you don't have to option to not mega evolve. Mega Groudon is a form decided before the battle, depending on its held item. Just like how Shaymin Sky and Hoopa U are forms decided before the battle through different means. As reminded to us by @Miles8088

 

[Martin]

The conversation of Arceus being allowed actually began with us discussing the fire gym being allowing to use primal Groudon, because unlike a mega evolution you don't have to option to not mega evolve. Mega Groudon is a form decided before the battle, depending on its held item. Just like how Shaymin Sky and Hoopa U are forms decided before the battle through different means. As reminded to us by @Miles8088

Primal Groudon is much more subjective than Arceus. In the case of Groudon, there are valid arguments regarding both sides. On the one hand, you can consider it a separate Pokémon due to the lack of choice regarding primal devolution. This would suggest that Groudon can be considered either a pure Ground type or a Ground/Fire type depending on whether it holds Red Orb or not. On the flipside, Primal Groudon is not an alternate form which is available in party view, instead functioning like a mega evolution. This contrasts with Shaymin, Giratina, Hoopa and Rotom, who are all visible in party view. As such, Primal Groudon can be considered to be a mega evolution for all intents and purposes. Due to primal devolution being an entirely new mechanic, the way it is interpreted is up for debate.

In my opinion, any forme change (an umbrella term encompassing alternate formes, mega evolution, primal devolution and any other alternate versions of a Pokémon) which is available in party view should be legal in their respective gyms due to existing prior to the initiation of the battle, and any which are not should not be legal due to not existing prior to the initiation of the battle. This means that Primal Groudon (and concequently Primal Kyogre, although this has no impact on its legality) would be treated as either a mega evolution or an in-battle forme change akin to Meloetta-P, Darmanitan-Z or Transform/Imposter and as such would be illegal in the fire gym, and it would mean that Arceus-[Type], Shaymin-Sky etc. would be legal in their respective gyms.

 

[Cheza]

Primal Groudon is much more subjective than Arceus. In the case of Groudon, there are valid arguments regarding both sides. On the one hand, you can consider it a separate Pokémon due to the lack of choice regarding primal devolution. This would suggest that Groudon can be considered either a pure Ground type or a Ground/Fire type depending on whether it holds Red Orb or not. On the flipside, Primal Groudon is not an alternate form which is available in party view, instead functioning like a mega evolution. This contrasts with Shaymin, Giratina, Hoopa and Rotom, who are all visible in party view. As such, Primal Groudon can be considered to be a mega evolution for all intents and purposes. Due to primal devolution being an entirely new mechanic, the way it is interpreted is up for debate.

In my opinion, any forme change (an umbrella term encompassing alternate formes, mega evolution, primal devolution and any other alternate versions of a Pokémon) which is available in party view should be legal in their respective gyms due to existing prior to the initiation of the battle, and any which are not should not be legal due to not existing prior to the initiation of the battle. This means that Primal Groudon (and concequently Primal Kyogre, although this has no impact on its legality) would be treated as either a mega evolution or an in-battle forme change akin to Meloetta-P, Darmanitan-Z or Transform/Imposter and as such would be illegal in the fire gym, and it would mean that Arceus-[Type], Shaymin-Sky etc. would be legal in their respective gyms.

I would disagree and say that primal forms are a completely new mechanic altogether. Different from an in-battle form like Meloetta-P or Darmanitan-Z and mega evolution. Unlike Melotta-P and Darmanitan-Z, these Pokemon only change form when a move is used in battle or the Pokemons HP is 50% or below, leaving time in the battle when that Pokemon would not be a specific type that would effect the battles outcome (could be used to the users advantage.) While Primal Groudon becomes its Primal form as soon as it's sent into battle, leaving no option to not become that dual typing, making it ground/fire typing for every second of the battle. This typing is decided before the battle, based on the item you make it hold (the Red Orb.) Which if primal Groudon was used in the fire gym would have to use the Red Orb as its held item.

And unlike mega evolution, there is no option to not mega evolve. So once again, there is no option that the user has to not gain the fire typing and get an advantage. Completely different from an in-battle form and a mega evolution.

 

[doulie]

There shouldn't even be a need for such an exception though. Arceus is not a Normal-type if it is holding a plate. If it appeared on the field and then changed forme akin to Promal Groudon I'd completely understand; however, it is a change which occurs within the party--making it no different from Shaymin-S (who is currently legal for use in the Flying-type gym) or any variation of Rotom-A (also legal in their respective gyms). In other words, the current ruleset completely contradicts itself. If @doulie intends on continuing to disallow the use of Arceus in other gyms, I think that he should first provide a non-flawed piece of justification which doesn't fall under the grounds of personal bias, because quite frankly I can not see a single reason as to why such a self-contradictory and arbitrary restriction is in place.

Part of the reason the tiering council was originally formed was to remove biases within the sites ruleset (most notable in Mega Lucario's legality prior to the initial tier list's creation), and part of my job as a member of the said council has always been to sift through the site's various rulesets to identify inconsistencies and self-contradictory rules. This currently falls under both of these criteria, and as such I am obligated to keep pushing for a change with regards to this until it is either put into effect or an irrefutable justification is provided as to why Arceus should be disallowed outside of the normal gym. As of yet, there has been no valid reason provided for why it should not be legal outside of the normal gym, and based on you're response the only reason which has been provided by @doulie is built entirely on a foundation of personal bias. As such, a change should be put into effect legalising the use of Arceus in gyms other than normal so as to maintain consistency within the ruleset.

@Marigi174
Do you honestly believe that because of personal biases, i want the rock gym to be weaker than other gyms? What could i possibly gain from doing so? We have to be careful not to vilify others simply because we disagree with them. I, as much as anyone else, want all gyms in the Poke Gym challenge to be fair and fun for everyone involved... challengers and gym leaders alike. That is why I spent so much time working with community members to create it.

My biggest concern with allowing Primal Groudon and Arceus was the way they appear in the team preview screen. Correct me if i'm wrong, but there is no difference in icon or preview name between Primal Groudon and Groudon... same goes for Arceus and Arceus holding a Stone Plate. I foresaw that creating problems for challengers, especially ones that are new to competitive battling.

Another issue with Arceus is that if its allowed outside the normal gym, then it is allowed in every gym... and that could lead to a lack of diversity among the Uber Pokemon gym leaders choose.

My last major issue was regarding the lore. I cannot think of a single gym leader, in the Pokemon games or show, who uses a Pokemon whose base type differs from their gym type. I don't see a flying gym leader, for example, using Pinsir because it can mega evolve into bug/flying. The idea behind being a monotype gym leader, is that you have mastered that type and you can hold your own even when you are facing counter teams... and when you are at a disadvantage.

Everything else aside however, i think you and others in this thread, raised some reasonable points regarding Arceus. This is something that staff is already talking about and i am always open to change. Even if i disagree, if enough admins and mods think this is a necessary change then we may see a compromise happen in the rules.

 

[Martin]

@Marigi174
Do you honestly believe that because of personal biases, i want the rock gym to be weaker than other gyms? What could i possibly gain from doing so? We have to be careful not to vilify others simply because we disagree with them. I, as much as anyone else, want all gyms in the Poke Gym challenge to be fair and fun for everyone involved... challengers and gym leaders alike. That is why I spent so much time working with community members to create it.

My biggest concern with allowing Primal Groudon and Arceus was the way they appear in the team preview screen. Correct me if i'm wrong, but there is no difference in icon or preview name between Primal Groudon and Groudon... same goes for Arceus and Arceus holding a Stone Plate. I foresaw that creating problems for challengers, especially ones that are new to competitive battling.

Another issue with Arceus is that if its allowed outside the normal gym, then it is allowed in every gym... and that could lead to a lack of diversity among the Uber Pokemon gym leaders choose.

My last major issue was regarding the lore. I cannot think of a single gym leader, in the Pokemon games or show, who uses a Pokemon whose base type differs from their gym type. I don't see a flying gym leader, for example, using Pinsir because it can mega evolve into bug/flying. The idea behind being a monotype gym leader, is that you have mastered that type and you can hold your own even when you are facing counter teams... and when you are at a disadvantage.

Everything else aside however, i think you and others in this thread, raised some reasonable points regarding Arceus. This is something that staff is already talking about and i am always open to change. Even if i disagree, if enough admins and mods think this is a necessary change then we may see a compromise happen in the rules.

I didn't mean specifically the rock gym thing but rather the arceus thing in general. However, you have basically cleared up a lot of my concerns (i didn't really have many in the first place and in part just wanted to just provoke you into sharing your thoughts on the matter more than anything--basically my entire life is getting people to talk so i've learned that provocation is the most effective method) and can see you understand the situation here as well as I hoped and was 90% sure you would. Sorry for putting you on the spot like I did; I understand you want balance more than anything, and I was out of line to suggest otherwise. I just used the method which I deemed would lead to the quickest conclusion, so my apologies if I was being disrespectful and thank you for responding in spite of this.

I think the difference with Arceus and Groudon when compared to Pinsir is that they will always be the intended type due to the Arceus being its respective type prior to the match and due to Groudon's instantanious devolution. This means that, while they are not visible on team preview, you can instantly tell that the leader is cheating when they send them onto the field. This contrasts with Pinsir because you could theoetically bring Band Pinsir, say its mega and choose to never mega evolve and your opponent would be nonethewiser. You can't do that with Arceus or Groudon, so I personally don't agree with this gripe. However, I understand why you'd have concerns with regards to team preview and newer players here, so I won't be dismissive of it. However, if you are worried about newer players not being able to tell what arceus form it is, I wouldn't get to worked up over it because they have access to Google to check its appearance, and if you are concerned about them bringing it but never sending it out (I highly doubt you are; just covering all bases here) this is a non-issue due to it not impacting the outcome of the game.

Diversity probably wouldn't take a major hit because leaders tailor the team and just use what is most effective on said team. In addition, there are a large number of cases where Arceus is a very suboptimal choice for the team due to being outclassed by other Pokemon and having its role filled by other Pokemon of the same type, such as Arceus-Bug (you have Quiver Dancers, Swords Dancers, priority users and Defoggers with better defensive typing available and need to give up Genesect to use it, making it suboptimal a lot of the time). This is just an example, but it supports my point perfectly. Ultimately I see where the concern comes from but don't personally share said concern.

 

[Cheza]

@doulie @Marigi174 I like all the points that you two are bringing up. <3

At the time I don't see a need for allowing Arceus in every gym. The diversity in gyms could be troublesome if every gym had access to Arceus. However I think it might be a good time to allow the rock gym to use Arceus until it gets its own rock type uber Pokémon, and the fire gym to use primal Groudon. These Pokémon are the typing that matches their gyms typing from the beginning of the battle to the end. So unlike in-battle forms and mega evolution there is never a time that they do not match their gyms typing.

My last major issue was regarding the lore. I cannot think of a single gym leader, in the Pokemon games or show, who uses a Pokemon whose base type differs from their gym type.

While it doesn't happen often there are a few expamles where a gym leader uses a Pokémon who's base typing does not match the gym typing. However its secondary typing does.

Janine & Koga (Poison Gym Leaders): uses Pokémon like Ariados and Venomoth, whos base typing is Bug. Not Poison.

Sabrina (Psychic Gym Leader): In Red / Blue and Firered / Leafgreen she uses Venomoth... That's Bug/Poison, not even Psychic typing!

Blue (uuuuh?): HG/SS, Blue is the final gym leader, no typing at all?

Falkner (Flying Gym Leader): Pidgey and Piggeotto, both Normal/Flying typing.

Chuck (Fighting Gym Leader): Poliwrath, Water/Fighting typing.

Jasmine (Steel Gym Leader): Magnemite, Electric/Steel typing.

Pryce (Ice Gym Leader): Seel & Dewgong, Water and Water/Ice typing.

Clair (Dragon Gym Leader): Gyarados Water/Flying and Kingdra Water/Dragon typing.

Winona (Flying Gym Leader): Swellow Normal/Flying, Pelipper Water/Flying, Skarmory Steel/Flying, Altaria Dragon/Flying, Swablu Normal/Flying, Tropius Grass/Flying. Not a single base flying type Pokémon!

Tate and Liza (Psychic Gym Leaders): Claydol Ground/Psychic, Solrock Rock/Psychic, Lunatone Rock/Psychic.

Wallace and Juan (Water Gym Leaders): Sealeo Ice/Water typing.

Bryron (Steel Gym Leader): Bastiodon Rock/Steel, Magneton Electric/Steel typing.

Volkner (Electric Gym Leader): Ambipom Normal, Octillery Water... What?

Candice (Ice Gym Leader): Snover Grass/Ice, Sneasel Dark/Ice, Medicham Fighting/Psychic, Abomasnow Grass/Ice typing.

Chili, Cilan, Cress (Fire/Grass/Water): Lillipup Normal typing.

Skyla (Flying Gym Leader): Swoobat Psychic/Flying, Unfezant Normal/Flying, Swanna Water/Flying Skarmory Steel/Flying typing.

Clay (Ground Gym Leader): Palpitoad Water/Ground typing...

The list probably keeps going, but as you can see there are plenty of in-game examples of gym leaders using Pokémon that have a base typing that makes the gyms typing. This change would only effect two gyms, and the members on the site are trustworthy. I don't see it being and issue to try it and see how it goes?

 

[doulie]

Rule update:
1) Primal Groudon is allowed in the fire gym
2) Stone Arceus, is allowed only for the rock gym. (Arceus can now be used in the following gyms only: Rock, Normal)