new meta mega-altaria

[Martin]

Seems far to situational to me personally. Natural cure has some interesting use on the bulky spread to at least act as a pivot early on in a game.

Altaria is the only viable user of Cloud Nine in OU, and really you won't be using Base Altaria as a pivot - not to mention that if you want to forgo fire blast you can just carry heal bell anyway. The problem I have with Natural Cure is that 9/10 you won't be switching Altaria in v.s. something that can status you as it isn't a very good pivot pre-mega. You shouldn't be bringing it in v.s. something that can Will-O u, and the ability to outpace Excadrill in the sand on the turn you mega ('cause the first thing you should do is set up without m-evoing v.s. it) is invaluble for taking it down - as well as enabling Altaria to outpace Omastar without even needing a boost. Rain and sandstorm are two of the best playstyles in the game, and the fact that Altaria singlehandedly shuts them down is too much to give up imo.

 

[notsoclutch]

Altaria is the only viable user of Cloud Nine in OU, and really you won't be using Base Altaria as a pivot - not to mention that if you want to forgo fire blast you can just carry heal bell anyway. The problem I have with Natural Cure is that 9/10 you won't be switching Altaria in v.s. something that can status you as it isn't a very good pivot pre-mega. You shouldn't be bringing it in v.s. something that can Will-O u, and the ability to outpace Excadrill in the sand on the turn you mega ('cause the first thing you should do is set up without m-evoing v.s. it) is invaluble for taking it down - as well as enabling Altaria to outpace Omastar without even needing a boost. Rain and sandstorm are two of the best playstyles in the game, and the fact that Altaria singlehandedly shuts them down is too much to give up imo.

It just seems too situational since you need the boost to even outspeed the most common weather sweepers (other than omastar that still lives and OHKOs you anyway). I see the value I guess, but I guess I like the ability to more reliably switch into rotom or stall mons more often with Altaria.

 

[PokemonFan]

Don't use Natural Cure. You want to carry Cloud Nine on it as it has some kind of utility, allowing you to deal with things like Sand Rush Excadrill by setting up on them before you mega, while Iron Head isn't going to be doing that much without being super effective. As turn order is calculated at the start of the turn, you will be able to mega and outpace it on the following turn to take it out with Fire Blast or EQ.

It's too much situational. Even Iron Head does not hit effective it still hit hard:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Altaria: 211-250 (68.7 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While Rock Slide which Excadrill common carry does quite a lot:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Altaria: 265-312 (86.3 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

 

[Martin]

It's too much situational. Even Iron Head does not hit effective it still hit hard:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Altaria: 211-250 (68.7 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While Rock Slide which Excadrill common carry does quite a lot:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Altaria: 265-312 (86.3 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

Just a heads up, but I was saying set up and outpace on the following turn under the assumption of jolly excadrill. However, 99% of Sand Rush Exca are adamant, which you outpace. It is much less situational than natural cure on the basis that it has no utility beyond early game switch-ins. This can allow you to flat out counter and deal with sandstorm - one of the most common and effective playstyles in the metagame.

 

[The Fifth Whisper]

tfw nobody mentions good ol' Cotton Guard / DDance / Roost / Return-- always worth testing out with. I rarely manage to get work in with it, but I've been destroyed by it too many times to count.

 

[notsoclutch]

Just a heads up, but I was saying set up and outpace on the following turn under the assumption of jolly excadrill. However, 99% of Sand Rush Exca are adamant, which you outpace. It is much less situational than natural cure on the basis that it has no utility beyond early game switch-ins. This can allow you to flat out counter and deal with sandstorm - one of the most common and effective playstyles in the metagame.

What spread are you running? Most Altaria run bulk over jolly max speed (as far as I know), since Altaria is outclassed by mega Charizard as an offensive dragon dance used.

 

[PokemonFan]

Just a heads up, but I was saying set up and outpace on the following turn under the assumption of jolly excadrill. However, 99% of Sand Rush Exca are adamant, which you outpace. It is much less situational than natural cure on the basis that it has no utility beyond early game switch-ins. This can allow you to flat out counter and deal with sandstorm - one of the most common and effective playstyles in the metagame.

Since gen 6 nerf the weather ability setter, sand (or sun or rain) playstyle no where as common as before

 

[notsoclutch]

Since gen 6 nerf the weather ability setter, sand (or sun or rain) playstyle no where as common as before

I wouldn't go that far. Pure weather might be rare, but sand and rain are very common and worth being prepared for. If you aren't properly prepared, Excadrill alone can be too much for some teams.

 

[PokemonFan]

I wouldn't go that far. Pure weather might be rare, but sand and rain are very common and worth being prepared for. If you aren't properly prepared, Excadrill alone can be too much for some teams.

Well even as it is i still don't think it more worth to use Cloud Nine just to counter them. Not like Altaria could swith in to them directly since pre-mega its stat quite low. May be only to EQ but still quite risky

 

[Martin]

Well even as it is i still don't think it more worth to use Cloud Nine just to counter them. Not like Altaria could swith in to them directly since pre-mega its stat quite low. May be only to EQ but still quite risky

Cloud Nine allows Altaria to revenge kill/force out Excadrill, which is very big in a metagame where sandstorm is so common. The thing is, with Cloud Nine, you are able to prevent your team from being sweeped by the all-powerful weather 'mons, and this is a huge utility considering that both rain and sandstorm are currently two of the most effective playstyles - as well as rain/sandstorm cores on balance and offense being very common due to just how threatening they are. Hell, Char-Y+Venu is a core that is starting to see use on upper-ladder teams, and if SUN is being used on the upper ladder you know that the metagame is shifting towards weather. The argument for Cloud Nine being situational while Natural Cure isn't is baffling as Natural Cure is argubly more situational than Cloud Nine as its utility is far less likely to have any effect on the match than that of Cloud Nine, and seeing as Altaria is going to be used on balance and bulky offense anyway it is more than likely that you will have a Blissey (not Chansey, as Chansey is ass outside of stall) or a Clefable to act as a cleric for Altaria if it doesn't carry Heal Bell itself.

 

[notsoclutch]

Cloud Nine allows Altaria to revenge kill/force out Excadrill, which is very big in a metagame where sandstorm is so common. The thing is, with Cloud Nine, you are able to prevent your team from being sweeped by the all-powerful weather 'mons, and this is a huge utility considering that both rain and sandstorm are currently two of the most effective playstyles - as well as rain/sandstorm cores on balance and offense being very common due to just how threatening they are. Hell, Char-Y+Venu is a core that is starting to see use on upper-ladder teams, and if SUN is being used on the upper ladder you know that the metagame is shifting towards weather. The argument for Cloud Nine being situational while Natural Cure isn't is baffling as Natural Cure is argubly more situational than Cloud Nine as its utility is far less likely to have any effect on the match than that of Cloud Nine, and seeing as Altaria is going to be used on balance and bulky offense anyway it is more than likely that you will have a Blissey (not Chansey, as Chansey is ass outside of stall) or a Clefable to act as a cleric for Altaria if it doesn't carry Heal Bell itself.

Man, I swear about a month ago I was laughed out of the viability rankings when I brought up base venusaur and now suddenly it's viable. :s

As for the comment on cloud nine vs. natural cure, I guess it depends on the meta and I'll have to admit that I haven't really been able to play much recently, so there may have been a shift. However, from what I know status is a fairly common tempo play against bulky offense still and could potentially catch your otherwise safe switch in off guard. Natural cure helps these easily made misreads. Cloud nine (while a reasonably good ability on it's own) is situational in that it only helps about 50% of the time against what most would agree are niche team archetypes.

Both abilities are fine, but I just feel like Cloud Nine needs a very theoretical situation to occur that rarely actually happens in battle even against weather teams. Maybe I'm wrong, like I said earlier, I'm a bit rusty in the current meta-game, but that's my take anyway.

 

[Ejac]

I dont think dragon claw would be a bad attack to teach it, you get STAB and its good against dragon types which are pretty common

 

[PokemonFan]

I dont think dragon claw would be a bad attack to teach it, you get STAB and its good against dragon types which are pretty common

In some rare case only - like with Dragale. Pixielate transform normal type attack to fairy which already effective against dragon-plus the whopping 30% boost

 

[Martin]

Man, I swear about a month ago I was laughed out of the viability rankings when I brought up base venusaur and now suddenly it's viable. :s

Its viability is only coming out now due to teams featuring the core propping up on the upper ladder - and even then it is only D-rank due to the fact that it only works in Char-Y+Venu cores due to Ninetales and the sun playstyle being (regrettably) ass, and even then the core isn't very consistent and is very matchup reliant.

As for the comment on cloud nine vs. natural cure, I guess it depends on the meta and I'll have to admit that I haven't really been able to play much recently, so there may have been a shift. However, from what I know status is a fairly common tempo play against bulky offense still and could potentially catch your otherwise safe switch in off guard. Natural cure helps these easily made misreads. Cloud nine (while a reasonably good ability on it's own) is situational in that it only helps about 50% of the time against what most would agree are niche team archetypes.

I'm just going to comment on the last sentence here. I don't really see how two of the most effective playstyles in the metagame can be considered 'niche'. In fact, due to having powerful sweepers and wallbreakers in Excadrill and Mega Garchomp (sandstorm)/Kabutops and Kingdra (rain) it would be your first priority to shut down anything that takes huge advantage of the weather ASAP (i.e. all of those aside from Mega Chomp due to the fact that Mega Chomp destroys souls outside of sandstorm anyway) as they are all outpaced by Altaria normally. Really, if you haven't EV'd an offensive Altaria to outpace Adamant Excadrill w/ Cloud Nine (or a defensive/bulky Alt to outpace Kingdra under the same circumstances) you are probably doing something wrong anyway, as if you can't do that you are squandering your main niche before you mega.

Both abilities are fine, but I just feel like Cloud Nine needs a very theoretical situation to occur that rarely actually happens in battle even against weather teams. Maybe I'm wrong, like I said earlier, I'm a bit rusty in the current meta-game, but that's my take anyway.

They are both good abilities, but the chances of you being able to take advantage of Cloud Nine is far higher than that of Natural Cure on the basis that it lasts into the turn that you mega evolve and doesn't require you to kill momentum by switching out of Altaria in order to have any use. Having a burned/paralyzed altaria takes away a fair bit of momentum as-is, and the turn when Altaria switches can be used very well by a competent opponent.[/quote][/quote]

 

[notsoclutch]

Its viability is only coming out now due to teams featuring the core propping up on the upper ladder - and even then it is only D-rank due to the fact that it only works in Char-Y+Venu cores due to Ninetales and the sun playstyle being (regrettably) ass, and even then the core isn't very consistent and is very matchup reliant.

I'm just going to comment on the last sentence here. I don't really see how two of the most effective playstyles in the metagame can be considered 'niche'. In fact, due to having powerful sweepers and wallbreakers in Excadrill and Mega Garchomp (sandstorm)/Kabutops and Kingdra (rain) it would be your first priority to shut down anything that takes huge advantage of the weather ASAP (i.e. all of those aside from Mega Chomp due to the fact that Mega Chomp destroys souls outside of sandstorm anyway) as they are all outpaced by Altaria normally. Really, if you haven't EV'd an offensive Altaria to outpace Adamant Excadrill w/ Cloud Nine (or a defensive/bulky Alt to outpace Kingdra under the same circumstances) you are probably doing something wrong anyway, as if you can't do that you are squandering your main niche before you mega.

They are both good abilities, but the chances of you being able to take advantage of Cloud Nine is far higher than that of Natural Cure on the basis that it lasts into the turn that you mega evolve and doesn't require you to kill momentum by switching out of Altaria in order to have any use. Having a burned/paralyzed altaria takes away a fair bit of momentum as-is, and the turn when Altaria switches can be used very well by a competent opponent.

[/quote][/QUOTE]
Just clarifying that I meant niche in that it's still fairly rare and doesn't have much variety to it.