If we banned Chatter for being "luck-based" we'd also have to ban:
Thunder Wave
Confuse Ray
Dynamicpunch
Sleep moves
Protect (double protect OP)
So that's a no.
That's not what I meant... it allows an otherwise rather 'meh' pokemon to function 50% of the time (unlike using something like Encore or sleep to aid setup, which are virtually guaranteed), it deals damage (unlike Confuse Ray) it has actual utility (unlike Confuse Ray) doesn't have a 50% chance to be useless on the turn it is used (unlike Confuse Ray) it is 100% accurate (unlike Dynamic Punch) it hits and confuses through subs (unlike both Dynamic Punch and Confuse Ray) its utility beyond setting up is practically nonexistent (unlike Thunder Wave and sleep), doesn't guarantee setup in the same way that sleep does - making Chatot doing anything useful reliant on a 50% chance as opposed to an 80% chance (which is basically not luck based at this point as it a super-supermajority of the time an is not a coin flip - it is very rare for a "first turn wake" in the sense of the first turn after it inflicted) - and it doesn't kill momentum (unlike Protect and Confuse Ray). If you are trying to compare it to any of those moves you are not really understanding my point.
I'm not sure what in PU "outclasses" Bastiondon, but from my experience its bulk is too much to ignore and it's not a super big deal to avoid your weaknesses.
Well, in the tiering council you agreed that we could move Probopass down for a start, which basically takes away the niche of its typing due to Probopass having Magnet Pull, better offensive presence, similar overall bulk, greater utility and slightly higher speed, it is outclassed by Gigalith, Golem and Carracosta as a rocks lead due to them having utility beyond setting up (Custap Explosion to prevent hazards from being removed for Gigalith, Custap Explosion and Sucker Punch for Golem, utility beyond a lead for Carracosta). As a physdef wall it is outclassed by Poliwrath, Carracosta, Avalugg and Gourgeist-Super due to them having either better bulk, better typing, more offensive presence, more utility or any combination of those.
Swoobat's defenses are shit
252 SpA Life Orb Raichu Thunderbolt vs. +2 0 HP / 0 SpD Swoobat: 242-289 (88 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
It's not moving up.
I never said its defenses weren't bad, but I would have
never guessed that a STAB Super Effective LO-boosted hit would OHKO. In fact I'm
surprised that it has a >50% chance to live that from full health. And besides: if you're using Swoobat, its not for its defensive utility - it is for its OFFENSIVE utility because, y'know, it is an OFFENSIVE 'mon. The Simple CM is just the icing on the cake that happens to let it take on
some special attackers. Instead of thinking of the bulk from Calm Mind, think of how it gives Swoobat a 20+(20*4)=100 base power Stored Power after one turn of setup and that two Calm Minds give it a 20+(20*8)=180 base power Stored Power after just two turns of setup - and this is before factoring in the extra points on Swoobat's SpA stat that come from having +4 SpA. This is a B rank 'mon.
Dedenne has a secondary type and different moves, so yes it outclasses Plusle.
Seeing how you brought up movepool and typing, I'm going to just compare the two 'mons real quick. Dedenne's entire Fairy-type movepool consists of Play Rough and... um... that's it. And Play Rough is going to do
soooo much damage coming off of that almighty base 58 attack. As for defensively, it gives you an immunity to a type that is only present in Altaria and a load of rather poor NFE 'mons while Plusle has an immunity to Zebstrika and Raichu's STABs with Lightningrod. The resistances that fairy brings mean diddly-squat when you consider that it has 67/57/67 defenses. Dedenne's movepool is severely limited. If you look at its useful moves, you have Nuzzle, Thunderbolt, Volt Switch, Hidden Power and Grass Knot. Not only can Plusle use all of those moves, but it can use Nasty Plot, Baton Pass and Encore too. This allows it to force out setup and defensive 'mons, pass off its boosts to other 'mons (although admitedly Baton Pass is done better by Minun (who is generally inferior to Plusle). Sure it is 100% outclassed by Raichu - who does everything that Plusle does better - but the fact you had the audacity to say that Dedenne outclasses Plusle when the opposite is true really shows that you don't know about the pokemon.
Kriketune has 65 speed, so I guess it can counterlead Ariados, but that's 1 mon. It's not moving.
Kricketune has 65 speed, sure. But it is still better than Ariados. Also, it allows you to prevent the vast majority of rocks leads from setting up their hazards due to 65 OUTPACES the vast majority of rocks setters. In addition, it ties with Pelliper - who never runs max speed timid. This means that it can Taunt it, preventing it from using Defog while Kricketune is still on the field. That is a pretty damn big niche if you ask me - much bigger than Ariados', as T-Spikes aren't even very good tbh. How about having Ariados in D, Kricketune in C and Leavanny in B? That seems fare more realistic than Kricketune in F, Ariados in C and Leavanny in B if you ask me..
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