Active Official ORAS Tier Discussion

[notsoclutch]

Well,Cloyster WAS once OU. Now it's not because we have a better understanding. Pokemon is getting more complex these days.

To be fair, it was OU back before the days of things like Aegislash, Mawille, and Talonflame that make its job that much harder.

 

[Baron Aaron]

Well,I meant back in the 4th and 5th generations. My,how they were short.

 

[phenix]

Well,I meant back in the 4th and 5th generations. My,how they were short.

Um...what was short?

 

[Martin]

There are a large number of Pokémon which are A rank in OU dispite not being in OU - namely Hippowdon. The main issue with Exploud and Cloyster is that they suffer from having overall middling stats and are just too situational to fit onto most teams, and it is why they are in D rank in OU. They aren't unusable, but they are just so situational that they aren't worth using the vast majority of the time due to being overall mediocre choices. There are select teams which they fit onto, but they aren't splashable to the point of being OU worthy.

 

[SoIidSmok3]

As i look at this sites ORAS tier list, il admit, it is a great foundation to be this sites unique tier list. Yet a minor problem im seeing is some Pokemon seem to have been hastily placed in, for lack of a better word, an uneven tier. Im willing to offer my suggestions and even help finesse the tiers into a smooth and balanced list. I have put a lot of effort into memorizing and researching pokemon battle tactics in a Single battles setting. As an experienced competitive battler i believe i can help with these sort of discussions.

 

[Dom]

As i look at this sites ORAS tier list, il admit, it is a great foundation to be this sites unique tier list. Yet a minor problem im seeing is some Pokemon seem to have been hastily placed in, for lack of a better word, an uneven tier. Im willing to offer my suggestions and even help finesse the tiers into a smooth and balanced list. I have put a lot of effort into memorizing and researching pokemon battle tactics in a Single battles setting. As an experienced competitive battler i believe i can help with these sort of discussions.

Adding you now

 

[Matt_192]

Just so everyone is aware, you now need 1400 Elo on 2 Official Showdown ladders to apply for a spot on the ORAS Tiering Council. When we say official ladders, this applies to Ubers, OU, UU, RU, NU, PU, NFE and LC - not Random Battle and Anything Goes as some people have asked me.

If you do not like playing on Showdown, then you need to show strong evidence of your skill in 2 or more tiers in game. This can either be through strong and consistent tournament results or multiple battles with the rest of the council.

When you apply, please attach a screenshot of your Showdown name and rankings - thank you

 

[ericashes]

Hello, I have officially met the minimum requirements to join the tiering council and would like to apply. I achieved 1400 in the Ubers and Doubles OU tiers. I have been on this site a while and you all know me and my knowledge of pokemon , and I think you would find me as a good fit to help out . I also would like to see if I can help out in either Ubers our Doubles tiers, since I was able to keep such a positive record in those two and think I do well with the consistently enough to know what I am talking about.

 

[Dom]

Hello, I have officially met the minimum requirements to join the tiering council and would like to apply. I achieved 1400 in the Ubers and Doubles OU tiers. I have been on this site a while and you all know me and my knowledge of pokemon , and I think you would find me as a good fit to help out . I also would like to see if I can help out in either Ubers our Doubles tiers, since I was able to keep such a positive record in those two and think I do well with the consistently enough to know what I am talking about.

Welcome to the squad kiddo

 

[Axel Davis]

Can you only reply here if your a tier leader or a council member? I have lots to add to you guys' unique tier list but if i have to become a council member im sure i can get 1400 ELO on one more ladder.

 

[Matt_192]

Can you only reply here if your a tier leader or a council member? I have lots to add to you guys' unique tier list but if i have to become a council member im sure i can get 1400 ELO on one more ladder.

Yeah I'm a tier leader and council member.

I've never really seen you around before though so we may want to hold back before accepting you if that's ok.

What tier changes did you have in mind? Do you have any past qualifications (tournament wins, VGC rankings, battle spot, showdown peak, etc)?

 

[notsoclutch]

Can you only reply here if your a tier leader or a council member? I have lots to add to you guys' unique tier list but if i have to become a council member im sure i can get 1400 ELO on one more ladder.

We have a separate discussion area that could definitely use another member if you qualify. If you don't meet qualifications, you can always tell a current member what changes you'd like to make and see if they'd be willing to fight for said change (unlikely to happen in this way though).

 

[Axel Davis]

Yeah I'm a tier leader and council member.

I've never really seen you around before though so we may want to hold back before accepting you if that's ok.

What tier changes did you have in mind? Do you have any past qualifications (tournament wins, VGC rankings, battle spot, showdown peak, etc)?

1.) The reason you've never seen me is cause i'm new. I was looking up "XY OU" when your site came up. Did alittle research and decided a liked what I saw and now im a member.

2.) Im willing to wait a little while, i am new lol.

3.) Uhh, i won a monotype tour before, and im at 1407 on the ladder with my "Free Genesect 2016" showdown account. I been playing competitive since gen 4 but I really only got good in XY. Even now im still learning new stuff. But like I said I can get 1400 on another ladder to be accepted.

We have a separate discussion area that could definitely use another member if you qualify. If you don't meet qualifications, you can always tell a current member what changes you'd like to make and see if they'd be willing to fight for said change (unlikely to happen in this way though).

By qualify do you mean getting 1400 ELO on 2 smogon ladders? I'm half-way there so that can be done.

 

[Matt_192]

1.) The reason you've never seen me is cause i'm new. I was looking up "XY OU" when your site came up. Did alittle research and decided a liked what I saw and now im a member.

2.) Im willing to wait a little while, i am new lol.

3.) Uhh, i won a monotype tour before, and im at 1407 on the ladder with my "Free Genesect 2016" showdown account. I been playing competitive since gen 4 but I really only got good in XY. Even now im still learning new stuff. But like I said I can get 1400 on another ladder to be accepted.



By qualify do you mean getting 1400 ELO on 2 smogon ladders? I'm half-way there so that can be done.

Just as a quick check - you do play ORAS right?

Eh, the 'qualifications' we look for are mainly in the official tiers + VGC + Dubs, but thanks for that. I did have a look at your showdown rankings though.

Again, 2x1400ELO isn't a guaranteed entry, but thanks for responding

What tier changes did you have in mind?

 

[Axel Davis]

Just as a quick check - you do play ORAS right?

Eh, the 'qualifications' we look for are mainly in the official tiers + VGC + Dubs, but thanks for that. I did have a look at your showdown rankings though.

Again, 2x1400ELO isn't a guaranteed entry, but thanks for responding

I literally just started genning on ORAS again to take on the gym challenge, so yeah i'd say im back in business.

Well changes I would like to make (though if there is good reasoning behind not changing them I will digress) is mostly Genesect on both the single and doubles metagames. I don't have nearly as much experience in doubles as I do in singles so i'll come back to that. Im going to get into why Genesect isn't unhealthy for singles.

Brace yourself for a wall of text, didn't know how to hide it in a box.

1.) Heatran - Genesect's first and without a doubt best counter is Heatran. Every single Heatran set/spread lol-stomps Genesect badly. The only one move Genesect has is (god forbid) Hidden Power Ground. Not much to say here really.

2.) Aegislash - When I first discovered PP's OU tier list, this was what surprised me the most. Seeing this broken garbage and not Genesect really brought a tear to my eye. Any-hoo, unless Genesect is running the slightly uncommon, but still viable Flamethrower, Aegislash can come in and wall Genesect into oblivion. It can also play around with a choice locked Genesect, forcing a switch. Also, if the Aegislash is running any SpDef evs, Flamethrower is a nice 3HKO. And vise-versa with Blaze Kick. With download boosts those 3HKO's become 2HKO's

3.) Conkeldurr - While packing an Assault Vest, special variants of Genesect, even after a +1, fail to 2HKO Conkdeldurr. Hell, in a 1v1 matchup, Flame Orb Conk still can KO with a Guts boosted Drain Punch + Mach Punch combo. You could even run the uncommon Fire Punch over Ice Punch if that's your thing.

4. ) Mega Charizard X/Y - Both Charizard's can defeat Genesect quite easily in a 1v1 matchup. Unless Genesect is packing an Expert Belt AND is a +1, its Thunderbolt (the best move it has against Charizard Y just barely knocks it out (100% exactly, at a low roll). Charizard X is much better suited to deal with Genesect however. Bulky DD, and Bulky Will-o-Wisp both are able to either cripple it with Will-o-Wisp and proceed to knock it out, or use it as setup fodder.

5.) Prankster - This should be pretty self explanatory. Prankster mons simply cripple Genesect, whether they are hitting it with a Thunder Wave or a Will-o-Wisp.

6.) Many other mons are able to take advantage of Genesect's without a doubt best set (and most common), the choice scarf set. Magnezone, Greninja, Keldeo, even Latios and LO Deoxys-Speed. Im not even going to get into pokemon from lower tiers (looking at you Entei). [/hide]

As far as doubles go, i just know smogon ranked it as UU level, so it must be pretty bad right? Can't really say much there, I just know that nobody uses it in doubles cause its bad. Alot of singles ubers are quite frankly

 

[Matt_192]

I literally just started genning on ORAS again to take on the gym challenge, so yeah i'd say im back in business.

Well changes I would like to make (though if there is good reasoning behind not changing them I will digress) is mostly Genesect on both the single and doubles metagames. I don't have nearly as much experience in doubles as I do in singles so i'll come back to that. Im going to get into why Genesect isn't unhealthy for singles.

Brace yourself for a wall of text, didn't know how to hide it in a box.

1.) Heatran - Genesect's first and without a doubt best counter is Heatran. Every single Heatran set/spread lol-stomps Genesect badly. The only one move Genesect has is (god forbid) Hidden Power Ground. Not much to say here really.

2.) Aegislash - When I first discovered PP's OU tier list, this was what surprised me the most. Seeing this broken garbage and not Genesect really brought a tear to my eye. Any-hoo, unless Genesect is running the slightly uncommon, but still viable Flamethrower, Aegislash can come in and wall Genesect into oblivion. It can also play around with a choice locked Genesect, forcing a switch. Also, if the Aegislash is running any SpDef evs, Flamethrower is a nice 3HKO. And vise-versa with Blaze Kick. With download boosts those 3HKO's become 2HKO's

3.) Conkeldurr - While packing an Assault Vest, special variants of Genesect, even after a +1, fail to 2HKO Conkdeldurr. Hell, in a 1v1 matchup, Flame Orb Conk still can KO with a Guts boosted Drain Punch + Mach Punch combo. You could even run the uncommon Fire Punch over Ice Punch if that's your thing.

4. ) Mega Charizard X/Y - Both Charizard's can defeat Genesect quite easily in a 1v1 matchup. Unless Genesect is packing an Expert Belt AND is a +1, its Thunderbolt (the best move it has against Charizard Y just barely knocks it out (100% exactly, at a low roll). Charizard X is much better suited to deal with Genesect however. Bulky DD, and Bulky Will-o-Wisp both are able to either cripple it with Will-o-Wisp and proceed to knock it out, or use it as setup fodder.

5.) Prankster - This should be pretty self explanatory. Prankster mons simply cripple Genesect, whether they are hitting it with a Thunder Wave or a Will-o-Wisp.

6.) Many other mons are able to take advantage of Genesect's without a doubt best set (and most common), the choice scarf set. Magnezone, Greninja, Keldeo, even Latios and LO Deoxys-Speed. Im not even going to get into pokemon from lower tiers (looking at you Entei). [/hide]

As far as doubles go, i just know smogon ranked it as UU level, so it must be pretty bad right? Can't really say much there, I just know that nobody uses it in doubles cause its bad. Alot of singles ubers are quite frankly

Agreed on Doubles; Complete disagree with Singles

1) Heatran. Yeah, Genesect has counters, but Ho-Oh being stopped by the majority of rock types won't make it OU either. Just because a Pokemon has one counter that's used a lot doesn't make it OU material instantly

2) Aegislash. I'm the first, and most likely only person in the tiering council to agree with you on this, not to mention Mega Mawile and Greninja, who I still deem broken as hell.

3) Don't run Conk in this metagame please .-. AV Conk is pretty bad now that we're into ORAS, and with our meta rocking Mega Mawile it's not any better at all. Not to mention that the only possibly viable set it has going for it is Sheer Force + LO

4) Thunderbolt is one of the most common moves, lol. Mega Zard X deals with it as well though, sure.

5) Prankster doesn't completely nullify it really. Burn only hampers STAB, while leaving its coverage special attacks open. T Wave is an issue, but Heal Bell/Aromatherapy are always options

6) Deo-S is banned, Latios gets destroyed by U-Turn, Greninja gets blown back by U-Turn or Thunderbolt OR Iron Head depending on its current typing, Keldeo can't take 2 +1 Thunderbolts and Magnezone can get bopped by a roll on Blaze Kick/Flamethrower.


Despite all of this, it doesn't actually matter. Genesect was broken for its sheer overcentralization of the meta, not its number of checks. Sure, Aegislash, Mega Zard X, etc can stop it; but back in the days of early XY OU, Genesect was on nearly every single team. Journeying back to usage statistics in December 2013, Genesect held 21% of usage in second place to just Rotom-W, not to mention that it was banned midway through this month, so didn't get a full month of usage. So why is Genesect banned and not all of the other common threats like Landorus-T, Garchomp and Rotom-W? A few things really: diversity of viable sets, an incredible stat spread, ability to rip apart the tier with strong STABs, coverage moves, Shift Gear, priority and more.

 

[notsoclutch]

I literally just started genning on ORAS again to take on the gym challenge, so yeah i'd say im back in business.

Well changes I would like to make (though if there is good reasoning behind not changing them I will digress) is mostly Genesect on both the single and doubles metagames. I don't have nearly as much experience in doubles as I do in singles so i'll come back to that. Im going to get into why Genesect isn't unhealthy for singles.

Brace yourself for a wall of text, didn't know how to hide it in a box.

1.) Heatran - Genesect's first and without a doubt best counter is Heatran. Every single Heatran set/spread lol-stomps Genesect badly. The only one move Genesect has is (god forbid) Hidden Power Ground. Not much to say here really.

2.) Aegislash - When I first discovered PP's OU tier list, this was what surprised me the most. Seeing this broken garbage and not Genesect really brought a tear to my eye. Any-hoo, unless Genesect is running the slightly uncommon, but still viable Flamethrower, Aegislash can come in and wall Genesect into oblivion. It can also play around with a choice locked Genesect, forcing a switch. Also, if the Aegislash is running any SpDef evs, Flamethrower is a nice 3HKO. And vise-versa with Blaze Kick. With download boosts those 3HKO's become 2HKO's

3.) Conkeldurr - While packing an Assault Vest, special variants of Genesect, even after a +1, fail to 2HKO Conkdeldurr. Hell, in a 1v1 matchup, Flame Orb Conk still can KO with a Guts boosted Drain Punch + Mach Punch combo. You could even run the uncommon Fire Punch over Ice Punch if that's your thing.

4. ) Mega Charizard X/Y - Both Charizard's can defeat Genesect quite easily in a 1v1 matchup. Unless Genesect is packing an Expert Belt AND is a +1, its Thunderbolt (the best move it has against Charizard Y just barely knocks it out (100% exactly, at a low roll). Charizard X is much better suited to deal with Genesect however. Bulky DD, and Bulky Will-o-Wisp both are able to either cripple it with Will-o-Wisp and proceed to knock it out, or use it as setup fodder.

5.) Prankster - This should be pretty self explanatory. Prankster mons simply cripple Genesect, whether they are hitting it with a Thunder Wave or a Will-o-Wisp.

6.) Many other mons are able to take advantage of Genesect's without a doubt best set (and most common), the choice scarf set. Magnezone, Greninja, Keldeo, even Latios and LO Deoxys-Speed. Im not even going to get into pokemon from lower tiers (looking at you Entei). [/hide]

As far as doubles go, i just know smogon ranked it as UU level, so it must be pretty bad right? Can't really say much there, I just know that nobody uses it in doubles cause its bad. Alot of singles ubers are quite frankly

I agree with it being legal in doubles. We frankly need a lot of tweaking with our doubles tier, but we don't have enough doubles players on the tiering council to bring up doubles issues. Now onto why I believe that Genesect is...frankly ridiculous.

1) U-turn: Stab u-turn coming off of a 120 attack stat is pretty crazy to begin with, but when paired with the ability download, and a decent speed tier, it makes genesect really tough to deal with. Every counter/check you name are simply coming in to take A LOT of chip damage as the genesect user gets a switch advantage.

2) Band, Scarf, Autotomize, Rock Polish: With great coverage and an insane movepool, Genesect can do everything but be a wall. When paired with the right teammates, Genesect teams only lose against perfectly timed doubles (or a perfectly played Zard based team).

3) Offense checking offense: As @Matt_192 stated, Genesect is very centralizing. When Genesect was available on Smogon OU, it made stall nearly impossible to play while balance needed one of three Pokemon to stay relevant in the tier. This made for an incredibly stale meta of Genesect offense vs. Talonflame offense vs. Heatran balance.

If you have any replays from early XY that can somehow disprove any of what Matt and I are saying, then feel free to share them, but it's VERY unlikely that Genesect drops anytime soon. You'll likely have to wait until after new Pokemon are shown off.

 

[Axel Davis]

I agree with it being legal in doubles. We frankly need a lot of tweaking with our doubles tier, but we don't have enough doubles players on the tiering council to bring up doubles issues. Now onto why I believe that Genesect is...frankly ridiculous.

1) U-turn: Stab u-turn coming off of a 120 attack stat is pretty crazy to begin with, but when paired with the ability download, and a decent speed tier, it makes genesect really tough to deal with. Every counter/check you name are simply coming in to take A LOT of chip damage as the genesect user gets a switch advantage.

2) Band, Scarf, Autotomize, Rock Polish: With great coverage and an insane movepool, Genesect can do everything but be a wall. When paired with the right teammates, Genesect teams only lose against perfectly timed doubles (or a perfectly played Zard based team).

3) Offense checking offense: As @Matt_192 stated, Genesect is very centralizing. When Genesect was available on Smogon OU, it made stall nearly impossible to play while balance needed one of three Pokemon to stay relevant in the tier. This made for an incredibly stale meta of Genesect offense vs. Talonflame offense vs. Heatran balance.

If you have any replays from early XY that can somehow disprove any of what Matt and I are saying, then feel free to share them, but it's VERY unlikely that Genesect drops anytime soon. You'll likely have to wait until after new Pokemon are shown off.

Agreed on Doubles; Complete disagree with Singles

1) Heatran. Yeah, Genesect has counters, but Ho-Oh being stopped by the majority of rock types won't make it OU either. Just because a Pokemon has one counter that's used a lot doesn't make it OU material instantly

2) Aegislash. I'm the first, and most likely only person in the tiering council to agree with you on this, not to mention Mega Mawile and Greninja, who I still deem broken as hell.

3) Don't run Conk in this metagame please .-. AV Conk is pretty bad now that we're into ORAS, and with our meta rocking Mega Mawile it's not any better at all. Not to mention that the only possibly viable set it has going for it is Sheer Force + LO

4) Thunderbolt is one of the most common moves, lol. Mega Zard X deals with it as well though, sure.

5) Prankster doesn't completely nullify it really. Burn only hampers STAB, while leaving its coverage special attacks open. T Wave is an issue, but Heal Bell/Aromatherapy are always options

6) Deo-S is banned, Latios gets destroyed by U-Turn, Greninja gets blown back by U-Turn or Thunderbolt OR Iron Head depending on its current typing, Keldeo can't take 2 +1 Thunderbolts and Magnezone can get bopped by a roll on Blaze Kick/Flamethrower.


Despite all of this, it doesn't actually matter. Genesect was broken for its sheer overcentralization of the meta, not its number of checks. Sure, Aegislash, Mega Zard X, etc can stop it; but back in the days of early XY OU, Genesect was on nearly every single team. Journeying back to usage statistics in December 2013, Genesect held 21% of usage in second place to just Rotom-W, not to mention that it was banned midway through this month, so didn't get a full month of usage. So why is Genesect banned and not all of the other common threats like Landorus-T, Garchomp and Rotom-W? A few things really: diversity of viable sets, an incredible stat spread, ability to rip apart the tier with strong STABs, coverage moves, Shift Gear, priority and more.

1.) Both of you make excellent points. Genesect being unbanned would cause a huge metagame shift in favor of fire types. I honestly wouldn't care or not if it dropped, but i would love a suspect test for it on smogon. To see how it really is in a controlled environment. Then I would make my final decision

2.) Mah boy Conk :'(

3.) I think the only reason Greninja, Mawile, Aegislash, and others are unbanned is so this isn't a carbon copy of smogon. I frankly like being able to use broken garbage

4.) Deoxys-Speed is banned? Since when lol http://perfectpokemon.com/threads/official-pokemon-oras-tier-list.7138/

5.) As far as those other pokemon I mentioned, it all comes down to deducing Genesects set and sending in the appropriate pokemon to deal with it. Scarf Latios/Keldeo is able to bop it with a HP Fire, Greninja is the same, depending on what move Genesect is choice locked into. Magnezone is works the same, even more so since it can't escape.

All in all, smogon should just have another suspect meta. If its still deemed too op then back to ubers he goes. Remember, Genesect got banned 1.6%, so it was a pretty controversial ban and is still quite debatable.

Now i'm going to work on my resume in hopes of joining the council to this nice site.

 

[Matt_192]

1.) Both of you make excellent points. Genesect being unbanned would cause a huge metagame shift in favor of fire types. I honestly wouldn't care or not if it dropped, but i would love a suspect test for it on smogon. To see how it really is in a controlled environment. Then I would make my final decision

2.) Mah boy Conk :'(

3.) I think the only reason Greninja, Mawile, Aegislash, and others are unbanned is so this isn't a carbon copy of smogon. I frankly like being able to use broken garbage

4.) Deoxys-Speed is banned? Since when lol http://perfectpokemon.com/threads/official-pokemon-oras-tier-list.7138/

5.) As far as those other pokemon I mentioned, it all comes down to deducing Genesects set and sending in the appropriate pokemon to deal with it. Scarf Latios/Keldeo is able to bop it with a HP Fire, Greninja is the same, depending on what move Genesect is choice locked into. Magnezone is works the same, even more so since it can't escape.

All in all, smogon should just have another suspect meta. If its still deemed too op then back to ubers he goes. Remember, Genesect got banned 1.6%, so it was a pretty controversial ban and is still quite debatable.

Now i'm going to work on my resume in hopes of joining the council to this nice site.

Oh rip me, I play by Smogon rules a lot so I keep forgetting we have Deo-D and Deo-S in OU for some reason aha.

Eh, this isn't really a carbon copy of Smogon to begin with - people take a look at OU and then think if they were banned then we would be a clone, but there's at least 6 tiers below it that are different (not to mention NFE).

You say you want a suspect on Smogon, but we've realistically already had one. ORAS hasn't added much that can deal with Genesect (barring mCamerupt, but this is quite niched as it is). Public opinion of the players who are realistically going to get enough COIL to vote isn't going to change much. If anything, I think the percentage will just rise.

Scarf Greninja is always a bit iffy to be honest. It lacks a lot of killing power, not to mention that HP Fire Greninja is basically obsolete. The fact that we'd start forcing a meta like this shows that Genesect is just overcentralizing. As for Magnezone, sure you're right, but it's not a counter as it can't switch in. (Unless your name is Verlisify and everything is a counter :lenny: )

The whole 'deducing the set' thing is the same issue I have with Greninja. Whilst it isn't as big an issue with Genesect, by the time you have worked out the set, Genesect has either got a kill or it's set up.

I'm backing up everything @notsoclutch said as well - XY OU prior to PokeBank was just horrific lol. Xerneas being legal, Genesect being on most teams (I checked again - I think it was around 30% in higher level play in November), etc.

 

[Kitgurl66]

May I ask if it's possible to have tier sub categories , like how useful, mostly seen, or even which item is best for the tiers?